Ep. 17 Bludgeoned in Bali

Wow! This might be the most slaycationy slaycation of them all. It’s got a little bit of everything — exotic locales, violent family drama, bodies in suitcases, murder consultants, jazz music. The tragic story of Heather Mack and her family will leave you agape and questioning humanity. Hopefully, this marathon episode helps make it all a little more tolerable.


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our transcript


Speaker 1 00:00

Exciting news, the snakes from our episodes 7 and 8 have been renamed, they are no longer Hitler and HIV. You mean, they’ve got new names? What are their new names? Stalin and smallpox. Pack your body bags, we’re going on a Slaycation.


Speaker 1 00:27

These are murders and mysterious deaths that happen on vacation. I’m your co -host Adam Tex Davis, and as always I’m joined by…


Speaker 2 00:38

Cherry, tolerable.


Speaker 1 00:41

The always tolerable Jerry Colbert, my beautiful wife. A little less tolerable.


Speaker 3 00:46

Hi, Kim. How you doing, Kimmy? I’m good.


Speaker 1 00:50

Honey, how are you? I was good. I’m good for now. We’ll see if we’re in the same place later. Good, good. Gerry, how are you doing?


Speaker 2 00:58

I feel great. I really love making the show with you guys with Josh. Yes Yes, really nice to be back in our home studio. It is. Oh


Speaker 3 01:07

We did miss our studio, didn’t we? I love it. Didn’t we, Josh? We missed it. Josh is our…


Speaker 1 01:12

Audio engineer for are you in the shot? I can’t tell. No.


Speaker 2 01:17

Just outside the frame. Just outside the frame. And listening.


Speaker 1 01:20

And and also every now and then feeding us a line that gets us in trouble


Speaker 2 01:26

A couple of our one -star reviews are thanks to Josh. Well, that’s how you know we have the right guy for the job. Yeah. Oh, no, we love it. We love it. Yeah. Keep them coming.


Speaker 1 01:34

If you listen on Spotify, you’ll notice there’s questions you can answer about the episode but also a poll, a poll you can take, and then exciting news, exciting news. I like exciting news. The snakes from episodes seven and eight have been renamed.


Speaker 1 01:50

They have a new name. They used to be Hitler and HIV, and now they’re Stalin and smallpox.


Speaker 4 01:58

I love it.


Speaker 1 01:59

Thank you. Thank you to our listeners for renaming the snakes. And if you don’t know what I’m talking about, you really do need to listen to episodes seven and eight featuring a Slaycation and snakes named Hitler, Hitler and HIV.


Speaker 2 02:13

I don’t think I want HIV or smallpox, but right agreed or Hitler or Stalin. Yeah. I mean now I don’t want them either


Speaker 1 02:21

Right. I thought Idi Amin and Ebola had a strong chance.


Speaker 3 02:26

But I don’t know. Was it in the lead at any point?


Speaker 1 02:30

Uh, for a second.


Speaker 2 02:31

You know, I think maybe people don’t, none of the people know who Idi Amin is for that to have won I mean Stalin is such a recognizable. That is true You know almost pop -cultury at this point. Idi Amin was so fucking whacked out.


Speaker 2 02:45

I mean that’s some of the shit he did Stalin did terrible shit. I mean they all did. They all did terrible things. They all did


Speaker 1 02:51

Anyway, we’re not here to talk about snakes. No. We’re here to talk about Slaycation.


Speaker 3 02:55

Well, yes, but before we do that, one of our podcasters has a birthday coming up. A birthday?


Speaker 1 03:04

birthday one of our podcasters oh shit


Speaker 5 03:09

Ha, ha, ha!


Speaker 3 03:10

You’re a podcast. Yes. So feel free to wish my honey a happy birthday


Speaker 2 03:16

Oh, although by the time this episode comes out, yeah, it’s still.


Speaker 3 03:19

We’ll know, we’ll know, we’ll know. Happy birthday, honey.


Speaker 1 03:24

The guy who says offensive things and what a wish you a happy birthday.


Speaker 6 03:28



Speaker 1 03:30

Thank you. Aww, that’s very cute of you, honey. Um, that’s right, it is my birthday. Yes. Okay, that being said, Kim, where are we slacating today? Well…


Speaker 3 03:45

Today, our slacating hijinks takes us to the small island of Bali, a province of Indonesia in Southeast Asia. Known for breathtaking beaches, magnificent marine life, and calm, clear waters, this popular tourist destination offers diverse accommodations and an assortment of options of things to do and see, but not limited to ancient temples, street markets with alluring and unique handcrafted art jewelry and other mementos and exciting and hell of exciting nightlife.


Speaker 2 04:28

The Bali tourist board somehow got to Kim.


Speaker 1 04:33

Mary Poppins like


Speaker 2 04:36

Accommodations include king sweets with balconies and ocean views


Speaker 1 04:41

It sounds beautiful. What could go wrong there? Well…


Speaker 3 04:45

Yes, yes, so let’s just say that our players are part of the Mack family. So the Mack family was a very well -traveled group. The threesome, James L. Mack Jr., his wife Sheila von Wiese Mack, and their daughter Heather Mack, traveled pretty extensively, although the trip to Athens, Greece would be the final trip that family would take together.


Speaker 3 05:20

On August 6, 2006, the patriarch of that family would die reportedly in the hotel in front of his wife and their daughter, who was nine at the time.


Speaker 1 05:31

So you have the Mac family travels together. They go to Greece and the dad dies in the hotel.


Speaker 2 05:38

So dad is James Mack and I just kind of a big shot. I don’t want to talk about him for a second Okay, so but this isn’t this location


Speaker 3 05:46

Well, I mean, it’s.


Speaker 2 05:47

I mean there is this location right so okay, so we’re not telling you yet. Whether that was or was not this location


Speaker 1 05:53

Oh, and just to clear it up, I don’t know anything about the case. Jerry and Kim know about the case and they tell me the case. And then I ask questions and make jokes and get yelled at on.


Speaker 2 06:08

Online but so so James. Okay. Okay, so James was the dad. Yes so James was a very accomplished and very respected composer and musician So so James was probably I mean his most famous work was with Tyrone Davis Tyrone Davis, you may may or may not know was Kind of a huge Chicago based soul singer known for like very romantic really sultry awesome Music, but he also moved into like disco during the disco era, but he was quite a famous performer Gotcha.


Speaker 2 06:48

And this is what? So Jay so Tyrone was was popular in the 70s and 80s But he was recording into the 90s and 2000s James Mack who we’re talking about here was his arranger Okay for all pretty much all of his records on Columbia and Brunswick He was James was was a big part of 60s and 70s Chicago soul He was a major player with Brunswick Records who did everyone who worked with everyone from Duke Ellington to the Chylites Jackie Wilson, Nancy Wilson Nancy Wilson Ramsey Lewis, so like James is just a big deal like everybody in particularly in jazz R &B and soul knows knows who he is So I didn’t know there was this term that came up when I was researching this called race records Did you know this?


Speaker 2 07:39

I did not so race records referred specifically to 78 rpm records that were marketed to black Americans in the 1920s to 1940s And I’d never I’d never heard the term and I think when I saw that term I was like, that’s just that’s gave me like a bad like yeah, that’s a weird term but it was a very it was actually like even put on the The records and the albums so that people know what they were and and the reason for this was because America was so segregated right was was So segregated now, it’s just segregated but because America was legally segregated Right.


Speaker 2 08:17

The law there was a lot. There was actual laws right that said openly Oh, right The law said in many places that that black people could not shop in the same places as white people and so these Records these they’re called race records were almost exclusively known by black Americans and they also Encompass almost the entirety of recordings of black musicians up through the 50s, right?


Speaker 2 08:44

So James Mack who is the father in our story was part of that world. He was a composer musician He played on these albums and a conductor and a conductor with the symphonies like Duke Ellington symphony many and


Speaker 1 09:01



Speaker 2 09:03

are records that everything from jazz, soul, orchestra,


Speaker 1 09:07

And these were records that black people were allowed to buy.


Speaker 2 09:10

They were it wasn’t even louder. It was like they were these are the records that were sold in black record stores Gotcha. Okay, and white Americans for the most part were not going into right black record stores So there really wasn’t a lot it wasn’t it wasn’t


Speaker 1 09:22

the term the race records. I’m sure black people didn’t come up with that.


Speaker 2 09:26

No, it actually seems like from my research, it seems like it was black record labels came up with that term to identify their records. So this was all really interesting. I was like, wow, I had no idea that the music industry was so segregated that they actually had a term for 78 RPM, you know, singles.


Speaker 2 09:49

Now they just call it rap. Well, that you mean it’s but kind of like that is what happened was in the 60s and 70s as those laws, civil rights act happened and those laws went away and the industries just became the music industry and not the black music industry and white music industry.


Speaker 2 10:06

Eventually, that is what happened. Point being, James was very involved in that world. And then when he started, he started there as just a very beloved, respected composer, musician, arranger. He was even the chairman of the music department at Harold Washington College.


Speaker 2 10:21

And as the music industry evolved into just the music industry, he was still a very big part of it, including with Tyrone Davis from the 70s and 80s. So he was in a range of big, big hit songs and just very respected.


Speaker 2 10:36

Right. You know, so how old?


Speaker 3 10:39

known to incorporate classical music into jazz arrangements. He had his own thing going.


Speaker 2 10:46

I started listening to some of his music he did like one song called Japan and Brazil and you know Some of his own arrangements are just they’re really great like I’ve been listening to them all week his like 50s and 60s orchestral stuff It’s it’s cool.


Speaker 2 10:59

Anyone who’s into music would actually really like his stuff. He’s great So I felt like in the course of doing this research. I Discovered someone I didn’t know who he was before I knew I certainly knew some of the artists he worked with for sure Yeah, but he’s like one of those guys who’s like the artist behind the artist there right right, right?


Speaker 2 11:18

So I was excited to discover James back. Okay, so that’s my sidebar


Speaker 1 11:24

And speaking of discovering James Mack That’s it. That’s the episode


Speaker 2 11:29

So, the next body, the next 30 minutes, we’re just playing James Maggie and Tyrone Davis.


Speaker 3 11:36

But of course, you know, James would have a very complicated personal and romantic life. He was married a total three times and had a son and five daughters and was married this most recent time to a woman named Sheila Van Wiese.


Speaker 3 11:55

Sheila Van Wiese.


Speaker 1 11:56

wheeze. Yes. That’s an interesting name. It does sound fancy.


Speaker 3 12:01

Yes. And the research that I’ve done, she’s referred to as…


Speaker 2 12:06

It’s called like a socialite and a wealthy socialite and we do


Speaker 3 12:12

word, and this may be for their daughter, Eris, I started to wonder what makes a socialite. And I honestly couldn’t really find anything that made her a socialite. It made me think I could be a socialite.


Speaker 3 12:27

Yeah, no. You could.


Speaker 2 12:28

you could I disagree I so you’re Kevin I thank you thank you Jerry I didn’t know that was on your I didn’t know that was


Speaker 1 12:37

I didn’t know it was on your list, but yeah, it was definitely. Happy birthday. Happy birthday. Fuck you. I know. See the things I…


Speaker 3 12:42

Okay. So.


Speaker 2 12:43

We both have very, you know, different but very thorough approaches to research and we kept seeing that I don’t know if you took that as an insult. It was not no more about my


Speaker 3 12:56

No, no, no.


Speaker 2 12:57

So we saw that mom Sheila Van Wiese was called a socialite and that her daughter was ultimately called an heiress. And so I hear these terms, to me that’s like old money or it’s like you’re talking about like hundreds of millions of dollars.


Speaker 2 13:09

That’s just not the case here. And we were unable to find anything about Sheila, the James Mack’s wife, that indicated that she was like from what we would normally consider a socialite family.


Speaker 3 13:22

She was giving this sort of thing that I wouldn’t expect from somebody born in Minnesota. And there goes our one star reviews from Minnesota. I’m just saying. She just sounded like she came from like a family, like everybody else.


Speaker 1 13:37

Did she just make up the Van Wiese that feels like a very we’re not we’re not sure


Speaker 2 13:41

Like it’s because I even looked into that like what is the van Wies genealogy and I couldn’t find her in it


Speaker 1 13:47

It’s like a name you would come up with to sneak into a party. Yeah, like I’m Teeter Van Wiese. Yeah, am I on the list? The Van Wieses? Yeah.


Speaker 3 13:54

Right. Well, the name, I will say that the name does work. It works. If I was going to say I’m a socialite, I would probably… You would be Bunny Van Wien.


Speaker 2 14:05

Right right right so we’ve come to the conclusion that all that socialite means is so much shit. We think it’s


Speaker 3 14:11

It’s bullshit.


Speaker 2 14:12

Yeah. That’s not what I was going to say, but that is the better way to say it.


Speaker 3 14:17

Give me no disrespect to Sheila.


Speaker 2 14:19

Well, it just seems like all you have to do is you have to have the right last name, you have to have a certain look, you have to show up at the right parties and you have to give money to certain charities and behave a certain way, and you can say, I’m a social light.


Speaker 2 14:35

So it’s entirely possible that just by marrying James, who was, you know, reputable, celebrity.


Speaker 1 14:44

You’re right, Kim, you could be a social light, like diet, like diet, like, you know, it’s like so


Speaker 2 14:52

Social light I think if Kim wanted to like present herself as a social light. It’s really how you do your hair It’s a makeup thing. It’s oh my god. You have to do that It’s all stuff But you could do that and you could walk in and buy the ticket to the right party and walk in and people are like I don’t know who she is do that.


Speaker 2 15:08

She’s clearly belong. She’s part of our world, right? So


Speaker 1 15:11

You could make dinner and walk the dog too, but she’s not gonna do that either. Yeah, but that’s not true. I know.


Speaker 3 15:17

I just said that the lies.


Speaker 2 15:18

It really is a love. So James and Sheila are married, they’re together for a while, this is not his first marriage. Right. Right.


Speaker 3 15:25

This is his third marriage.


Speaker 2 15:26

Sheila is I believe she was 40 her biological clock was ticking she really wanted a


Speaker 1 15:31

daughter. Oh, so none of the kids were hers. No, no, no, prior they’re


Speaker 3 15:35

from another marriage in fact it didn’t seem like she had relationship at all with any of his other children and don’t feel like she encouraged him to have a relationship with his other family thing she discouraged that is correct that was consistent what I found in my research


Speaker 1 15:53

With a kid like why why the animosity towards the kids because she wanted herself or because the kids were


Speaker 3 15:59

If it was animosity, as much as just, I don’t know, what do you think, Jerry? I’m just saying, if you’re discouraging somebody from being with their kids. Which I think is gross. I’m going to just say, I’m not judging, but I’m judging.


Speaker 3 16:11

I think that that’s just gross, but whatever.


Speaker 1 16:14

to be with their kids.


Speaker 2 16:16

Yeah, I mean look I I don’t know what what her motivation was for that. I mean she maybe they were


Speaker 3 16:21

crazy. Okay. But they’re on vacation and there’s three of them. Well, they’re on vacation and he, he dies.


Speaker 5 16:30

The End


Speaker 2 16:34

We have gone in the largest circle This is the public’s podcast should be just this episode is because it’s called like a big -ass circle Oh, yes a fucking circle. We’re we’re 37 minutes in and we have not gone anywhere Okay, so let’s can we put grease on hold for like a tiny second?


Speaker 2 16:51

And just just back to Greece just hold off with Greece for a second because like alright So we talked about James Mack we know who James Mack is he’s married to Sheila von Weis. She’s in her around 40 years old She has a daughter with James Heather Mack So interestingly, you know Heather was born into this this Family with her parents, you know in 1995 by 2004 She’s she’s nine or ten years old and it’s already clear that she is a very Contentious relationship with her mom, right?


Speaker 2 17:22

So yeah, meaning crazy fights physical fights. There’s just some kind of Oil and water between Heather Heather and her daughter Sorry, Sheila and her daughter Heather to the point where like the police end up being called to the house 86 times between 2004 and 2003 six times So the time she’s 10 until the time she’s 20 the police are called 86 times.


Speaker 2 17:47

Yeah, so


Speaker 1 17:49

We thought we had it bad. I know the police called once


Speaker 3 17:53

Yeah, that’s right.


Speaker 2 17:54

So yeah, 86 times and for everything from fighting to hitting, bruising, broken arms.


Speaker 1 18:04

Wait, what? Yeah. And who’s breaking whose arm?


Speaker 2 18:07

Um, I believe the daughter may have broken, maybe.


Speaker 3 18:12

There’s reports that there was some domestic violence going on between mother and daughter.


Speaker 2 18:19

But unclear, we don’t have clarity on that because the police would come and the parents would never, you know, allow photographs or evidence or, you know, it’s basically like that. Apparently. Yeah.


Speaker 2 18:32

Who knew? Yeah. So.


Speaker 1 18:35

What does dad think about all this?


Speaker 3 18:36

Well, a lot of this… I’ll be in the studio. There came a certain point when… Dad…


Speaker 2 18:45

Get me Tyrone, I got a new song to write.


Speaker 1 18:49

Sorry honey, I don’t have time, I got a hot lick in my head.


Speaker 3 18:56

Well, there came a certain point where James, he was dealing with a series of health problems. They had gone in a cruise and he had sustained an injury cutting himself.


Speaker 2 19:09


Speaker 3 19:11

Okay, and the ship doctor had addressed his injury however his injury didn’t seem to resolve he at one point was diagnosed with sepsis and they ended up amputating suing oh


Speaker 2 19:27

Those are your options. Sewer, amputate. Next on Sewer, amputate.


Speaker 1 19:33



Speaker 3 19:34

I knew a girl named Sue. It also was diagnosed with colon cancer. So he was really battling and dealing with.


Speaker 2 19:44

And he was, when Heather was born in 1995, he was 66 years old. So he was already up there, right? And so this cruise in 2001 where he wasn’t treated correctly for this injury on his leg led to paralysis and a lawsuit against Royal Caribbean.


Speaker 3 20:05

He was rendered in a, he had to be in a wheelchair now with major mobility issues.


Speaker 1 20:12

He’s got a lot to deal with, and Tyrone Davis is not easy either. He’s out of the pick of the wage.


Speaker 2 20:18

Just on the Tyrone Davis tip, it is if you want to have a fun visual journey through America from like American style from like 1950 through 2000s, go look at the covers of Tyrone Davis because Tyrone Davis is an amazing artist, musical artist, very prolific.


Speaker 2 20:36

The guy’s been putting out albums for decades, almost like every year. And if you look at all the album covers, it’s like I kind of want to put them all on the wall because it’s just like the full spectrum of American pop style for like 50 years from one guy.


Speaker 2 20:51

Gotcha. Anyways, James is dealing with a lot of health issues and the misdiagnosis on the cruise ship led to this lawsuit, which they end up settling for $840 ,000.


Speaker 3 21:06

through until after he had passed.


Speaker 1 21:09

Well, if there’s nothing else you need, like when you’re sick and dealing with illness, is your daughter and your wife breaking each other’s arms and fighting constantly? No, it’s super helpful. Yeah, it’s super helpful.


Speaker 1 21:19

That’s actually what the…


Speaker 2 21:20

doctors tell you is make sure that people are committing domestic violence to help you heal. The cops coming along. Right? Isn’t that always the good advice? Always, always. So in 2004, so three years after this issue that he has on the Royal Caribbean cruise, police are called to the Mac residence in Chicago because James’s children from his prior marriages want to see their dad who they know is having health issues.


Speaker 2 21:45

Sheila is denying access to the fire.


Speaker 3 21:48

Turns out the lights and pretends they’re not home like


Speaker 2 21:52

nobody’s here we’re not home right you know which doesn’t rhyme me yeah 2006 we get to Greece now here’s Greece they so in 2006 Sheila and James decide they want to go on a vacation to Greece they decide they’re gonna take Heather who how old


Speaker 3 22:10

at this point I think she’s about not


Speaker 1 22:12

She’s nine. She’s nine. So they go to Greece. They go to Greece.


Speaker 2 22:17

And during the trip, James dies in a hotel room from a pulmonary embolism.


Speaker 3 22:24

Yeah, which is a blood clot.


Speaker 1 22:27

Okay. It’s a weird location.


Speaker 4 22:30

Well, so then.


Speaker 2 22:32

Well after he dies the lawsuit about the Royal Caribbean trip from I mean look bottom line These people just shouldn’t go away because like every time they go away some like one time he goes away He gets paralyzed and next time he dies The lawsuit continues on after his death.


Speaker 2 22:48

Yeah, it’s real Caribbean and it’s not settled until 2011 at which point Heather is now 16 I think like she was born


Speaker 1 22:56

in 95. Right. Please ask Kim to do math on the spot, her favorite thing in the world.


Speaker 3 23:02

That’s correct.


Speaker 2 23:03

Yeah. Hey, Slakators. We’ll be right back with more Slaycation after this quick word from our sponsors.


Speaker 6 23:09

The Hargan women seem to have it all.


Speaker 4 23:11

From the outside looking in, we were blessed. My mom was amazing.


Speaker 6 23:16

But as detectives would soon learn, there was a lot going on inside the Hargan household. Ashley and I have been calling my mom in the house, and Helen, no one’s answering. 63 -year -old Pamela Hargan gunned down in her own home.


Speaker 6 23:31

Her youngest daughter, Helen, lay dead upstairs.


Speaker 4 23:33

Patrol, when they arrived, assumed


Speaker 2 23:36

or thought that there might have been a murder suicide.


Speaker 6 23:39

but for the detectives on the scene. There were things about the scene itself that were concerning to us on day one. Who would want to kill their mother and their little sister? There is no boogeyman here.


Speaker 6 23:51

It is exactly who we think it is. I’m Peter Van Sant from 48 Hours. This is Blood is Thicker, the Hargen Family Killings. Listen to Blood is Thicker, the Hargen Family Killings, wherever you get your podcasts.


Speaker 1 24:11

All right, now back to location.


Speaker 2 24:16

So interestingly, when he dies, they have to settle his estate and a will is, a will is offered up.


Speaker 3 24:24

My understanding is he had done his will very recently before he had passed.


Speaker 2 24:28

Like within the week and for oh like like within five or six days. I was just passing and


Speaker 1 24:35

the will, just woke up one day and said, you know, I’m going to work on my will.


Speaker 2 24:40

may have had some feeling you know oh I have nothing no basis for saying that other than it’s weird that Tyrone Davis by


Speaker 1 24:49

By the way, I had an album called I Had a Feeling. Just kidding


Speaker 2 24:54

Track six is where there’s a will. Track seven is you go get fucked out of it. You ain’t getting nothing. You get nothing. You get nothing. All right. Track seven. The will wills the entire state to Heather, the daughter.


Speaker 3 25:11

Not to his other children, nothing for the other kids, nothing for the wife.


Speaker 2 25:15

for the wife. All to Heather. All to Heather. So this is half a million dollars is basically the estate plus the real estate but the cash from the settlement there’s a half a million dollars. A judge in Cook County Illinois where Chicago is says no actually we’re going to just give the estate to Sheila the wife.


Speaker 2 25:42

We’re going to ignore the will. Yes through the probate process they decide that the will is incorrect or invalid and give Sheila the money. Now you can imagine that this does not help the relationship between Sheila and her daughter.


Speaker 1 26:01

Just for, you know, I mean, Sheila, Heather, mother, daughter, you’d think that like, you know, if something happened to me, we have a daughter, you and the daughter, you know, you and our daughter would be able to work out like, you know, the money goes to one, but it’s really, you know, a family thing.


Speaker 1 26:20

It’s not, oh, I get it all by, like, it shouldn’t be that, but this relationship


Speaker 3 26:26

It depends on the family, it depends on the family dynamic. I’m gonna say that they probably did not have the most healthy family unit.


Speaker 2 26:39

The 86 cops from the calls might indicate something.


Speaker 3 26:43

But they were on this trip, and he dies suddenly of a pulmonary embolism.


Speaker 1 26:49

But it’s also like there’s nothing shady about the pulmonary embolism is there or


Speaker 3 26:55

Well, I mean given his health problems and probably his cancer treatments, which we don’t I’m getting it right, right


Speaker 1 27:02

It’s not the same.


Speaker 2 27:02

location part right no but also he at that point is 76 years old


Speaker 1 27:09

It is a death on vacation, so it doesn’t fit into the, but I feel like there’s more coming.


Speaker 3 27:14

be correct in that assessment. Well, thank you. I’ve only been…


Speaker 1 27:17

doing this for 11 episodes.


Speaker 2 27:20

Also worth mentioning is that you know besides Heather’s tumultuous relationship with her mom Sheila she is going to school at Oak Park and River Forest High School right okay and at school oh she’s 16 yeah 16 she’s in high school at this point and she meets this guy named Tommy Schaefer who’s another student a little older he was like maybe a senior when she was a freshman or whatever but she’s a little bit older they meet at the high school they fall in love


Speaker 3 27:51

And where it is is that they had got to know each other at a party. He was an aspiring rapper.


Speaker 2 28:01

named like rappy rappy rappy xx or something either really stupid one of those


Speaker 3 28:07

It was very strange.


Speaker 1 28:12

That’s a call back to another episode.


Speaker 2 28:15

Um, so so they be there they kind of fall on teenage love


Speaker 4 28:19


Speaker 2 28:21

Sheila really mom does not like this guy from day one is just like no And as you know, you know when a mom says to a teenage daughter, I don’t like this guy. She drops him like a stone Yeah, that’s what they do, right?


Speaker 2 28:35

They don’t dig in and parents


Speaker 3 28:37

tell your kids. I don’t think this is going to work for you.


Speaker 2 28:40

The perfect thing to tell a kid to get them to end a relationship.


Speaker 1 28:42

No, Kim. Yeah, Kim just says, I love him. I hope we get married tomorrow. Yeah. And then the guy was gone.


Speaker 2 28:52

Exactly right. And so as soon as a mom says, I can’t stand this guy, it’s like, oh, well, they’re just like, join at the hip. You might as well, yeah, just send them off.


Speaker 1 29:01

I find that it will open it.


Speaker 2 29:03

OK, so especially a mom who you already are having issues with. Right, right.


Speaker 3 29:08

And the thing too was she was a daddy’s girl. So she was very close to her father and was devastated by his dad.


Speaker 2 29:18

And devastated by what the judge did with the estate.


Speaker 1 29:24

Although she is only a minor still.


Speaker 2 29:26

she is and it could have gone into into trust for her but you know just the fact that she’s like my dad clearly wanted me to have this and instead Sheila has it mom has it


Speaker 1 29:37

Right. That’s a circumstance where a mom and a daughter are so opposed that the money going to one versus the other is like a big bad deal. I think it really is.


Speaker 3 29:50

really, again, depends on the family, the dynamics of the family. I mean, they had a strained and difficult relationship.


Speaker 1 29:58

But to think like mom’s going to inherit stuff and the daughter’s not going to get any part of it seems


Speaker 3 30:05

Well, if you’re that kind of child that thinks that you should have equal access and that you should not have to ask for access, then that could be problematic.


Speaker 1 30:20

Definitely, our money is her money, definitely has that.


Speaker 3 30:25

Yeah, I will say she’s good about it because she’s like, this is too expensive.


Speaker 1 30:30

No, she’s smart about it in that she says things like that. And then you give in because, oh, she cares.


Speaker 3 30:37

Just clever. Well, you know what that’s that’s that’s the way to go


Speaker 1 30:41

At least you guys aren’t breaking each other’s arms and calling the cops every day.


Speaker 2 30:44

Right so at this point so she’s got you know the relationship with her mom is strange She has this relationship with Tommy Shafer who she’s she’s totally into


Speaker 3 30:53

her mom when it seemed like it really intensified in terms of them butting heads after her father died and the others yes and the interesting thing too was after he had passed they still resumed the trip you mean the vacation right so it’s like well we’re here we may yeah we could use a smaller room now right that’s about right


Speaker 2 31:21

Wow, you know the cops now are getting called to the house and now it’s like there’s bite bruises on mom bite bite There’s mom has a broken arm. Oh, this is when all the yeah the breaking like there was no they there was 80 There was a lot of calls prior right but the but this situation like the they got worse things are worse


Speaker 1 31:42

Yeah, worse than 86 times. Wow. The cops must have been like, here we go again, every night.


Speaker 3 31:49

Sheila and Heather had a really volatile relationship. And when I say volatile, I got the sense that Heather was abusing her mother. And Sheila was afraid of her daughter because she was out of control.


Speaker 1 32:05

Like physically bigger and stuff or?


Speaker 3 32:07

No But she really had no qualms about putting putting hands on her mother right mm -hmm right and her mother would have bruises and Police would see the bruises and Sheila was resistant in pressing charges Because she didn’t see that it would do any good to have Heather taken away now there was a period where you know Heather was sent to a hospital


Speaker 1 32:38

like a hospital or like a mental institution. Yeah.


Speaker 3 32:40

That was it, she did go for treatment and I think that that had come as a result of a call that resulted in her going to jail because the police had noted the injuries on her mother.


Speaker 1 32:56

the police by the way Sheila I guess is yes or it’s not like neighbors are hearing it and calling the cops


Speaker 3 33:01

The calls were coming from that house, like those 86. The calls were coming from inside the house. The calls are coming from inside the house.


Speaker 2 33:14

Well, also, you know, let’s also keep in mind that Sheila and Heather were both grieving over the loss of dad, right? So there was also like, you know, later into all of this is like, how much, you know, that’s its own insane emotional drain.


Speaker 1 33:32

It’s just a tricky situation. You got a daughter attacking a mom and then the mom calling the police and then the police show up and then the mom doesn’t want to do anything. Yeah. So maybe she’s just hoping that the police will scare her from doing this again, but it doesn’t seem to work.


Speaker 2 33:48

Well, it’s also it’s a pattern. I mean they’ve done this 80 something times. So it’s like at some point It’s like how many you know 15 20 30 times in it’s like Okay, we’re gonna get the call. We’re gonna show up.


Speaker 2 33:59

They’re gonna tell us about the abuse They’re not gonna want us to take picture. You know, it’s like there’s gotta


Speaker 3 34:04

You can’t do anything unless you’re going to follow through, so that’s the thing.


Speaker 2 34:09

this habitual pattern. And she was…


Speaker 3 34:12

horrible to her mother, horrible, I mean she was stealing her credit cards and booking parties at a hotel, her mom would see it on social media, I mean it was just, and it wasn’t even like it was a one -off thing, I mean this was a consistent thing.


Speaker 3 34:32

Right, so the kid’s acting out crazy. She’s acting out. Okay, and biting. And biting and assaulting, I mean, I know she has never


Speaker 1 34:42

I know Gia has never bitten you because Gia still has teeth.


Speaker 2 34:48

He is still alive.


Speaker 3 34:50

Well, well.


Speaker 2 34:52

All this shit’s going on Heather actually the daughter actually gets pregnant by Tommy her boyfriend Gets an abortion twice


Speaker 1 35:02

twice. You said the way she said it. It’s like she got pregnant and she had two abortions just to make sure. So she got pregnant twice by not and


Speaker 2 35:15

My mom was very much like, you cannot have a kid. For whatever reason, in this case, how do you want to have that?


Speaker 3 35:22

kids who knows who knows what was going on what a mother should have done was talked about some birth control that’s what she needed to tell me she


Speaker 1 35:31

safer cannot be stopped.


Speaker 3 35:32

Apparently. No, he is a force of nature. Little impregnator. Well, you know, when you have teenagers that are in the throes of acting out, they’re wanting to be together.


Speaker 1 35:49

I’m feeling so much better about our kid right now.


Speaker 2 35:54

by the way funny thing about this story so funny thing funny thing what’s the funny thing what do you think heather looks like can you describe in your mind heather mac


Speaker 1 36:07

I feel like she’s a big girl. Mm -hmm.


Speaker 2 36:10

I said this Camarilla, she gives me a little bit of a Gia vibe. Gia is hard.


Speaker 4 36:14



Speaker 2 36:16

Oh, yeah, that’s her with Tommy shoot. Yeah


Speaker 1 36:18

But there’s a hoop earring that signifies danger.


Speaker 2 36:23

That’s just so she can take off her earrings when she needs to fight somebody Fight or bite whatever hold my earrings fight club. Shit’s about to get crazy. Oh, but she’s like


Speaker 1 36:35

Yeah, she’s like a kid.


Speaker 2 36:36

Right this is all sad. Yeah, so She and her mom decide they’re gonna go on a trip to Bali. Oh, it seems


Speaker 1 36:46

So you’re gonna try to explain to me why this is a good idea. No, yeah, there’s like a


Speaker 3 36:52

Well, I think that Sheila wanted to have the opportunity to have some one -on -one time with her daughter and have the opportunity to just, you know, be alone and connect and reconnect.


Speaker 2 37:11

This is in 2014. So daughter, Heather is around 18 or 19 at this point. Sheila’s like, look, we’ll go to Bali, we’ll stay at the St. Regis. It’s going to be a luxury getaway. We’ll have bonding time.


Speaker 2 37:26

And, you know, Heather’s totally down for it. Oh, yeah. She’s into it. She’s ready. They buy first class tickets to Indonesia, to Bali, right? So it’s like a very ticket. Well, mom.


Speaker 1 37:38

Doesn’t know it’s Tommy Shave


Speaker 2 37:40

is hiding in the over in the business class section where no really have their stole mom’s credit card and bought boyfriend Tommy a business class ticket to Indonesia but they want


Speaker 3 37:55

We weren’t on the same flight. Not the same flight. No. Different flights.


Speaker 2 37:58

different flights Wow but yeah like like also like how funny like I’m gonna buy my boy from to steal mom’s credit card and buy a ticket but I’m not gonna do first -class right like do economy right like that’s like a $20 ,000 ticket like that’s a that is a no joke like that’s not like I stole mom’s credit card to like go by you know get earrings that like you know mm -hmm like sunglasses sunglasses had or whatever like yeah like it’s


Speaker 3 38:27

Right right right that would be our daughter and it would be it would be August 2nd They departed Chicago’s O ‘Hare International Airport Flying first -class to Bali, Indonesia Okay, and there’s actually a photo.


Speaker 3 38:41

I was able to find a photograph of the two of them on this plane Like a selfie. Did you see it? I did not yeah the two of them in their little first -class seats smiling at the camera I think Sheila is even waving Mmm, so they arrived on August 4th and the two check in and Spent the first few days of their Bali adventure at the five -star W -Bali W hotels now


Speaker 1 39:10

Yes. Where’s Tommy staying? At the Econolod?


Speaker 2 39:16

I thought it was the St. Regis, but maybe it was the…


Speaker 3 39:18

They would end up going to the St. Regis after they got kicked out of the W. No, no, no They just was there for a spell and then the noise gonna okay. They were they were resort hopping Why not if you gotcha, why not sample more than one five -star luxury resort and how we do it?


Speaker 3 39:35



Speaker 1 39:37

We do five one stars.


Speaker 3 39:41

The interesting thing was, was that Sheila, while waiting for the car to take them from the W Resort to the St. Regis Resort, she reaches out to a friend via email complaining that Heather is really not around much, that she’s off.


Speaker 3 40:01

She takes off. She disappears for the day.


Speaker 1 40:04

What could she possibly be doing? Tommy.


Speaker 3 40:07

And Sheila had hoped that they would be able to, you know, spend the time together. Of course. That’s the whole point of the trip. And an interesting thing was was that as she was checking out at the W, she was told at checkout that essentially what Heather did was Heather had gone to a clinic and had forged her mother’s signature using her credit card and got a pretty big stash of painkillers.


Speaker 3 40:33

Oh. Yeah. So they arrived at the Regis Valley Resort at Nusa Dua, which is one of the more exclusive spots on the island. So here’s-


Speaker 1 40:48

as opposed to slumming it at the W.


Speaker 3 40:51

No, they’re all, they’re all quite. Fanciful. Yes. So it would be the early hours, August 12th, 2004, a frantic and fraught Sheila approached the hotel concierge, advising them that her daughter was missing.


Speaker 3 41:09

And while this is on brand for Heather and consistent with what Heather does, it was 3 .30 in the morning, and they are in unfamiliar territory. And they’re familiar.


Speaker 1 41:25

territory of Heather being lunatics.


Speaker 2 41:28

mom’s like we’re not at home like right


Speaker 1 41:33

I guess they had separate rooms or the showroom.


Speaker 3 41:36

They share a room. Okay.


Speaker 1 41:37

So she wakes up kids not there or whatever right right there, okay?


Speaker 3 41:40

And there are conflicting reports on how this whole thing played out. But the crux is, Heather did indeed book a first or business class flight from Chicago to Bali. And in addition, another room in the resort, say a love nest for the two of them.


Speaker 3 41:59

Her and her boyfriend, Tommy Shafer. Right, none other than Tommy Shafer. And of course, on her mother’s dime because she used her mother’s credit card. And you figure $12 ,000 for the plane ticket and then whatever cost it is to have a book of five -star luxury, a room in a five -star luxury hotel.


Speaker 1 42:24

inheritance is mine. I’m going to use it might be


Speaker 2 42:28

your name. Daddy’s foot money. This is what daddy would want. Daddy’s foot money. Right.


Speaker 3 42:35

So, of course, you know, witnesses report that an argument, of course, ensue. Some reports say that they just appeared. And she was like, oh, she appeared with Tommy. And then there are other conflicting reports that say that Sheila was told, oh, there’s another room in your name.


Speaker 1 42:56

But when you, hold on, just to step back for a second, you said she was distraught and she went to the concierge and said, my daughter’s missing. This is…


Speaker 3 43:07

says Sheila, looking for her daughter.


Speaker 1 43:09

Right, but this is before she found out that at this point she


Speaker 3 43:13

She didn’t know that Tommy was there. She didn’t know. Some reports say that it was at that moment when the two of them appeared in the lobby. Oh, you’re saying, okay. Right, other reports say that she was informed at that time that there was another room booked in her name.


Speaker 3 43:29

And she was like, holy shit, call whoever, get them down here and then- Gotcha, but either way, the daughter shows up with the Tommy Shafer guy. Exactly, either way, we know that


Speaker 2 43:40

It’s like three in the morning. Right. Three thirty in the morning. One way or the other. Okay.


Speaker 1 43:44

Now the three of them are together, right? Yeah, and shit’s about to get real.


Speaker 3 43:47

Shit is about to go down because Sheila is not happy.


Speaker 2 43:55

And Heather is like, hold my earrings.


Speaker 3 44:01

She’s like, can we talk about this upstairs? She’s like, this is why I wore these hoops. She’s like, can we talk about this upstairs?


Speaker 1 44:07

Right. Let me get my fighting teeth. Yeah.


Speaker 3 44:10

I mean, and it was like- Fighting this year.


Speaker 1 44:11

Is that a thing?


Speaker 2 44:13

fights her mom. He does. Oh my God. Fighting teeth. That’s good. She puts on her egg grill. Okay, go ahead.


Speaker 3 44:19

So, you know, so Heather insisted during this melee that they should probably continue this discussion and take it upstairs to their room And Sheila would be seen on Video footage at around 3 45. Oh my god.


Speaker 3 44:32

I’m like who kills who in the Quarter to four in the morning They had up 6 a .m. Sheila calls the concierge and requests a wake -up call for later that morning So here we are. It’s about noon Heather and Tommy are packed up they’re making moves now to head out with their bags and luggage and tow and they get the attention of one of the cabbies who I presume is waiting outside to You know take the guests on whatever excursions or wherever it is that they’re going.


Speaker 3 45:08

Uh -huh. So they grabbed the cab they put their suitcase in the back and they Inform the driver that they would return upon check out


Speaker 2 45:21

So they leave their suitcase in the cab while they go to check out. Gotcha.


Speaker 1 45:26

Watch or who is in that suitcase, or no.


Speaker 2 45:30

Hitler and HIV.


Speaker 1 45:35

they doing there wait okay so Heather and Tommy say we’ll be right back


Speaker 2 45:39

Right here’s the suitcase chill out for a sec. Here’s the suitcase put in your trunk. We’ll be back after we check


Speaker 1 45:45

starts leaking just ignore me.


Speaker 3 45:48

Pretty much, but what we do know


Speaker 1 45:50

Oh boy, I’m just guessing by the way, I really don’t know.


Speaker 3 45:54

what’s going on. But what we do know is that Tommy and Heather don’t come back with that suitcase. Oh well


Speaker 2 46:02



Speaker 3 46:03

with mom’s credit card? Oh yeah, absolutely. Disappears in leave Bali? There was one report that said that they had approached the front desk and had explained that Sheila would settle the bill and that they needed access to the safe containing Sheila’s stuff, which contained Heather’s passport and Sheila’s passport.


Speaker 3 46:30

And the hotel, the staff was like, no can do. Only Sheila can have access. That was smart for Sheila to stick with.


Speaker 1 46:38

Heather’s passport and the safe, by the way. Well, yeah. Well.


Speaker 3 46:42

Yeah. So they, of course, realized that she’s not going to get her passport. Right. They was looking to have them settle the bill since they were leaving. Heather and Tommy. Right. So they take off and there’s actually footage of them running away like literally of them scaling a wall, taking off and flagging down another cab and off they go.


Speaker 1 47:11

Right. All right. Well, you know what? It’s a great time to stop. Take a quick. You’ve had enough. No, no, no. I’m just going to take a little break for a word from our sponsors. And we’ll hear the rest in just a few minutes.


Speaker 1 47:25

Nice. All right. Now back to slakeshion. Okay. We’re back. Last thing we were talking about is Heather, the daughter and her boyfriend literally fled the scene, the scene of a hotel leaving mom behind, but it sounds like things are about to get.


Speaker 2 47:48

They’ve also left a suitcase and a truck.


Speaker 1 47:50

a suitcase and a trunk, right, always a good sign. That they put in a cab, the back of a cab. And they tell the cabbie, we’ll be back for this. Yeah, we’re gonna get you.


Speaker 2 48:00

check out and we’ll be right back. Gotcha. And instead.


Speaker 1 48:03

They run into another cab and drive away. That’s what happened. Okay, so then the hotel or somebody is like, you need to,


Speaker 3 48:11

Well at this point they hadn’t returned and the cab driver was waiting right


Speaker 1 48:16

suitcase, it’s like what the hell’s going on? And then somebody’s like, we need to look into this suitcase. And they open the suitcase. They do not. They do not. No.


Speaker 2 48:26

they don’t open the suitcase, they just see that there’s blood on the suitcase.


Speaker 1 48:30

blood on the suitcase or coming from within the suitcase.


Speaker 2 48:33

They just noticed blood on the suitcase. Whether it was coming from inside, we’re not sure, but there was blood. A bloody suitcase.


Speaker 3 48:39

Well, it was interesting too because it’s literally it’s literally this


Speaker 2 48:42

like logo for the show.


Speaker 1 48:44

We do have an alternate logo for the Plus, for the subscription.


Speaker 2 48:48

That’s right. That’s right. For people who really love us. This is one version. Right? In this version, the hotel says to the cab driver, hotel security says… Go to the police. You need to drive to the police right now and have them look in the suitcase.


Speaker 2 49:02

Another version is…


Speaker 3 49:04

that they opened the suitcase and saw that it was holding a person. Are you not allowed to talk about it?


Speaker 1 49:14



Speaker 2 49:15

Are you uh well this episode is sponsored by Samsonite, so we’re trying to be Right normally normally a person is holding a suitcase in this case my suitcase is holding a person


Speaker 1 49:27

Yeah, well that’s like what we say right see if you pack a bed in one go on vacation


Speaker 3 49:33

you come home in a bag. Right. I also read that police had come. They were notified.


Speaker 1 49:41

This time they bought the right side suitcase. Cause we had another case where the person didn’t fit in the suitcase. Well, Heather was like, I’m getting the big suitcase.


Speaker 3 49:50

Yeah, there was, she reportedly sat on the suitcase to really get her mother in there. Who reported that? That’s what she said, that’s what he and Tommy. Oh.


Speaker 1 50:03

okay so whether the suitcase was opened right there at the hotel or was brought to the police station is that the big discrepancy yeah but either way there’s a body Sheila it’s Sheila oh we know it’s Sheila right right right in the suitcase right right beaten and dead


Speaker 3 50:19

Yes, so they inspect the suitcase and they find the badly beaten mangled body of 62 year old Sheila


Speaker 1 50:29

I was really you know I it could have gone either way. I didn’t know who was gonna want him


Speaker 2 50:34

Who is your other option, you thought?


Speaker 1 50:37

The daughter? Well, the mom could kill the daughter, Tommy could do something, you know, I wasn’t a hundred percent sure, but I guess it was leaning towards, I mean, the daughter seems like she’s completely out of control.


Speaker 1 50:48

Unhinged. Unhinged.


Speaker 2 50:50

So you your version of this is that the daughter killed the mom. That’s you. Yeah.


Speaker 1 50:56

That’s where I’m leaning at this moment.


Speaker 4 50:59


Speaker 1 51:00

But maybe there’s


Speaker 2 51:02

to the story. Maybe there is. Maybe there is. Should we take another break? We just took one. That would be a great spot for a break but unfortunately we just took one. Yeah so yes it would seem like logically or sort of everything you know about this family that Heather the daughter snapped and killed mom.


Speaker 2 51:22

What they they discover is first they find some security footage from that lobby incident when the night before yeah earlier that that night when they were when Sheila was concerned that Heather wasn’t back and was looking for her and then Sheila sees Heather and Tommy in the lobby there’s security footage of Tommy and mom boyfriend and mom arguing like crazy


Speaker 3 51:49

Right. Right. I mean, that’s the interesting thing. There’s a lot of CCTV footage at certain points of that lobby, of even Tommy and going back and forth to Heather’s room and then with the suitcase.


Speaker 1 52:06

Yes, Heather and mom are staying in the same room. So Tommy, now the secret is out. So Tommy is there and he’s going into their room. Yep, they find a killer.


Speaker 2 52:16

The metal fruit ball, I believe it was, in the room is just clearly the murder weapon. It’s just beaten up, it’s covered in blood.


Speaker 3 52:25

I mean, there’s even footage of him walking out his room with something hidden under his shirt.


Speaker 2 52:33

So Tommy, because of the fight and the fruit ball and this footage of him hiding something, he becomes the suspect in terms of the actual killing of Shoah, right, yeah.


Speaker 3 52:46

So they take off, and they try to, you know, get another passport at the airport, and they’re like, okay, we need to get, and are told that they need to go to the embassy. Okay. And they then go check in at another resort.


Speaker 3 53:04

Oddly, not as expensive, but one local, one local to not far from the airport. Finally living within their means.


Speaker 1 53:14

Right. Right. Murder will help me. It does. That’s true. Especially.


Speaker 3 53:19

when you can’t ask for moms, well, she was still using she was still using her mom’s credit card, which which is absolute genius. You kill your mother and then you use her credit card. You as a genius your name.


Speaker 3 53:33



Speaker 1 53:35

don’t give tips like that. Okay, wait. Uh, so these two kids are on the run. They’re both about 2122. He’s 21. She’s 19. She’s 19. Okay. Right. They’re morons. They killed the mom. Yeah. And the mom’s body has been discovered.


Speaker 1 53:53

So they write and they’re pretty sure who is responsible. Well, they’re certainly,


Speaker 3 53:58

suspects right they the police are definitely looking at them and well security shows that they’re the only ones right that had interacted with Sheila right so at this time now would it be exactly so they are now at the embassy


Speaker 2 54:17

so you’re trying to get a passport. James Mack’s other kids. Right. Tyrone. Right, right. Tyrone Davis did it. Tyrone Davis was like, huh, that last album didn’t do too well. I’m gonna kill this guy.


Speaker 2 54:31

So Tyrone Davis just gave us one star.


Speaker 3 54:34

Yeah, so they are now at the Risada Bali Resort and Spa and Spa and Spa and hotel security recognizes them as the couple are they on the news at this point there’s a manhunt going for


Speaker 2 54:51

Because they’re the only people that know her. They have tons of security footage of them.


Speaker 1 54:55

had gone by like whether there was time for them to like put out a you know


Speaker 2 54:59

It wasn’t a lot of time, but like.


Speaker 3 55:01

They did it pretty swiftly. They were actually located at that hotel and arrested the very next day.


Speaker 2 55:08

Cause this is not a thing, like finding the body of an American tourist in a suitcase is like, this hasn’t happened a lot. Right? This is not- That was shocking me too! This is like, this is like a, oh shit, like, this is cause for, it’s on the news, it’s a manhunt.


Speaker 2 55:26

It should be like that everywhere. Right. Right. That’s not what’s who cares.


Speaker 3 55:29

traces are for. Right. And so they were arrested on August 13th, 2014. Heather’s like.


Speaker 2 55:37

Wow, there’s my suitcase. I love it.


Speaker 3 55:41

But look, the two explained to the police that they had been kidnapped and held captive but escaped.


Speaker 2 55:49

Thank God, unfortunately mom was not able to escape from the kidnappers. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. This story did not convince anybody. The authorities were not convinced.


Speaker 3 56:02

It just convinced me.


Speaker 5 56:03

for a second.


Speaker 1 56:05



Speaker 2 56:06

Okay, so, you know, so now they’re in Indonesia, you know, they’re accused of potentially killing mom. The potential penalty for death, for murder in Indonesia is death by firing squad. Firing squad, they do it old -school.


Speaker 2 56:28

Yeah, so they go to trial.


Speaker 3 56:34

They certainly.


Speaker 1 56:35

do they now is there anybody coming to their say defense family -wise or yep no no no no Tommy Shaffer doesn’t have any


Speaker 3 56:47

What Tommy Shafer has is a cousin that he’s reached out to. Cousin Bobby. Bobby Bibbs. Bobby Bibbs, yeah. His name is Bobby Bibbs.


Speaker 2 56:55

My name’s Robert Bibbs, but we’ve decided to call him Bobby Bibbs.


Speaker 3 56:58

If Bobby Phibbs was the way-


Speaker 2 57:00

call it Z six S’s I don’t care he has become right yeah Bobby bibs yeah she


Speaker 3 57:07

up he doesn’t show up but what he is I guess you could say counsel for when you want to kill your girlfriend’s mom who do you call


Speaker 2 57:19

If your girlfriend, Heather, says to you, Tommy, let’s kill my mom and get all that money back that’s mine, because there’s a $1 .6 million trust, by the way, that she, Heather, will get. I will give you money, right, to help me do this.


Speaker 2 57:37

Give you a cut. And you’re like, I don’t know how to kill nobody. I’m gonna call my cousin Bobby Bibbs. He knows how to kill people. I’m gonna give him $50 ,000. I’m gonna give cousin Bobby 50 Gs. Yeah.


Speaker 2 57:49

To tell me how to kill and get away with it. All right, is there a fruit bowl on the premises? I mean, like I was saying to Kim earlier, like, you know, when your car’s acting up, you’re not like, let me ask my boyfriend to call his cousin to see if he knows how to fix the carburetor.


Speaker 2 58:08

Right, right.


Speaker 1 58:10

It’s the opposite of my cousin Vinny. Instead of helping you get out of trouble. It’s a reverse Vinny. It’s a reverse Vinny.


Speaker 2 58:16

Yeah, yeah, so they so cousin cuz so Bobby bibs and was was a paid Murder counselor Exactly, that’s exactly was who gave them apparently terrible advice on you know how to do this


Speaker 1 58:34

terrible advice, but I see what


Speaker 2 58:36

you’re saying.


Speaker 3 58:46

sure you exchange tons of very explicit and detailed text messages about how to kill her.


Speaker 2 58:53

Yeah, and then hide something under your under your coat on security camera Oh and then put the with the suitcase filled with her body leaking blood in the back of a cab and leave it there That’s your advice.


Speaker 2 59:06

You should ask for a fucking refund from Bobby Biggs I cuz that was some bad bad murder counselor advice, right?


Speaker 1 59:12

Do you think that that was his plan or do you think they just fucked it all up? I don’t know Bobby was like this none of this. I don’t know. I didn’t know none of it makes sense none of it


Speaker 2 59:21



Speaker 3 59:22

We do know that they had e -mailed pretty extensively, Tommy and Bobby.


Speaker 2 59:27

Were you able to find the, I couldn’t find the text of the email. Text or email. Or both. You know.


Speaker 3 59:33

In court, there was a court document that I did locate that had the emails between Tommy and


Speaker 2 59:40

And did they go into detail on how to actually do the murder?


Speaker 3 59:44

Um, yeah, he offered, uh, a lot of suggestions, um, did they take them? Well, no, actually, because he had said, well, you need to make it look like an accident, um, or a suicide or, or, uh, did this start before?


Speaker 1 01:00:00

the trip, by the way. Yes. Okay.


Speaker 2 01:00:03

long. The trip was


Speaker 1 01:00:04

A murder trip gotcha, but even though Sheila’s idea should go I didn’t go on


Speaker 2 01:00:10

the trip and Heather was like, this is, this is the, this is the,


Speaker 3 01:00:13

who had first brought it up in February of that year. The idea of a trip. The idea. No, not the idea of the trip. She brought up wanting to kill her mother. Oh, okay. In February of that year.


Speaker 1 01:00:27

Okay, so then she jetty mind tricked her mom into coming up with well


Speaker 3 01:00:30

I think she was thinking, oh, killer at home. Regardless of how, or where, or when, this is speculation, when her mother said, hey, let’s go to Bally, I suspect Heather thought, this is an opportunity.


Speaker 3 01:00:45

To be on our show. Right, but before that. I’m sorry.


Speaker 1 01:00:52

That’s before


Speaker 5 01:00:54



Speaker 3 01:00:54

But before that, she’d been very vocal about wanting to kill her mother.


Speaker 1 01:01:03

Okay, okay. So does this Bobby character get brought into the fold as well? So now you’ve got an


Speaker 2 01:01:09

Not in Indonesia, because he’s back at home in Illinois. Right, Illinois, I think he is? Is he in Chicago? Yes, yes. He’s got his own legal issues coming up because of this, because they find all these texts and emails.


Speaker 3 01:01:21

But he didn’t do anything. It doesn’t matter. Well, he just run in his mouth, which just goes to show you that can be a problem. And he’s running his mouth, and he’s got a paper trail via the email. I wouldn’t have done it with the lyrics.


Speaker 1 01:01:35

And then you would have gone away with it now anyway, I mean not like


Speaker 2 01:01:39

The justice system does consider, like if you’re getting paid money to advise on how to kill someone, you are an accomplice to that. You just said, oh, like that’s something you need to like give someone their money back.


Speaker 2 01:01:51

Like what’s happening over here? I don’t know. Yeah. Well, he… I said too much. So meanwhile… It was for a movie idea. Meanwhile, back in Bali. Right. Okay. So now they’re going to trial, right? And they’re going to trial for murder, which carries the penalty of potentially death by firing a squad.


Speaker 2 01:02:08



Speaker 1 01:02:10

So, do they turn on each other, these two?


Speaker 5 01:02:13



Speaker 2 01:02:13

Not really, no, no, I mean good they sort of have the same story which is that Tommy did the murder But it was self -defense because she says that oh Cuz he’s like yeah, you saw that argument on tape then I was in her room She went crazy on me because the daughter was pregnant again And you know a third time Heather’s pregnant time and mom went crazy over that and Tommy said that Sheila attacked him Was choking him out for like a minute, and he attacked her and ended up Like for hitting her with the fruit bowling okay, that’s a term We’re gonna use now self -defense is an argument in as much as you defend yourself with reasonability To the thing that’s happening right so if someone’s choking you out, and she’s an older woman, and you can Push her away or like hold her down.


Speaker 2 01:03:03

That’s one thing but to like beat her repeatedly with her fruit bowl until she’s dead That is not really Self -defense


Speaker 3 01:03:12

But meanwhile there’s emails between Tommy and Heather basically going back and forth about how they’re going to do this.


Speaker 2 01:03:21

or meat tray.


Speaker 3 01:03:23

He’s like, just beat her with a big -ass pole, or knock her in the head, and they’re going back and forth. Like, literally, like, just texting back and through.


Speaker 2 01:03:33

There was no self -defense argument possible because there was too much communication showing that this was all premeditated. Gotcha. Right.


Speaker 1 01:03:42

fruit ball to Clue.


Speaker 2 01:03:45

That should be a new, you know, Heather is pregnant, right? Of course.


Speaker 3 01:03:51

That was confirmed on August 20, 2014. Authorities had initially thought that she was pregnant as a rouse to…


Speaker 2 01:04:01

sympathy and radio.


Speaker 1 01:04:02

to escape the firing squad yeah but she indeed was okay does that change things or it kind of does


Speaker 2 01:04:09

Yeah, I mean it’s because I’m here. It’s not right And it also the thing is they felt like she was saying that to her as sympathy like I’m a mom


Speaker 1 01:04:20

No, she’s a mom because embryos are people now


Speaker 2 01:04:26

It will always be too soon for that nonsense. Yeah, they go to trial and they end up finding them guilty. They confess to what they did. They did.


Speaker 3 01:04:36

Well, she was found guilty for assisting. Right. He was found guilty of the murder.


Speaker 2 01:04:41

the murder but they took into consideration some of the self -defense stuff like they don’t end up sentencing them to death. They sentenced him to 18 years in Indonesian prison.


Speaker 1 01:04:53

firing squad with paint pellets.


Speaker 3 01:04:55

Well, it’s interesting. The thing about Indonesian prison that was interesting was that it seems that their prison model is like all or nothing. They’re very much about rehabilitation. You know, so it’s like they have the death penalty, but their prison model is really focused and centered at least from what I understand on rehabilitation.


Speaker 3 01:05:16

In other words, if you are a good prisoner and you do your time and you’re not causing trouble and you’re following the rules, you actually get the time shaving off your sentence. So you could end up with a 10 -year sentence like Heather and be out 34 months before.


Speaker 3 01:05:38

And a one -way ticket back.


Speaker 1 01:05:39

back to the states.


Speaker 2 01:05:40

Well, so, okay, so he gets sentenced to 18 years, she gets sentenced to 10. And as Kim said, you know, Heather actually was a model citizen. Now, interestingly, also, model prisoner, sorry.


Speaker 3 01:05:51

And certainly not a model.


Speaker 2 01:05:53

She also remembers pregnant, right? So your question might be, what happens to the baby? I was wondering. Well, in Indonesian prison, you are allowed to keep your children with you up until they’re two years old in the prison.


Speaker 2 01:06:09

Oh, that’s nice. So, this is a photo of Heather and her baby in prison together.


Speaker 1 01:06:18

You tell your teenage kid when they’re like, no, it’s like a prison in here. Aw.


Speaker 4 01:06:23

I know, I know, right? You’re just like, what?


Speaker 2 01:06:27

So then oh So so for the first two years Heather has has her child Stella with her and in the Indonesian prison and then after two years She has to give her to someone to take care of the baby and she gives her to a woman named OSHAR putu melodei Surtama Okay watches the baby now wait they met during the trial so OSHAR was was a translator who helped Who helped Heather during the trial gotcha?


Speaker 2 01:06:57

So the babies with OSHAR? And then as Kim mentioned, you know Heather was very much a model prisoner, and she was saved off


Speaker 3 01:07:08

Although people were upset because she was a prisoner, but she still was on social media, looking very refreshed and happy and dancing. And people were not feeling like… She’s learning. Particularly her maternal side of the family, but her mother’s not amused by it.


Speaker 3 01:07:33

The Vanuises were not amused. They’re generally…


Speaker 2 01:07:36

The Van Wiese’s generally are hard to abuse. So after like six years or so, Heather gets released early. Yes. Right. And so now she’s reunited with Stella, her child, who’s now six, I think, six or seven.


Speaker 2 01:07:52

Yes. She was released.


Speaker 3 01:07:54

She had 34 months shaped off her sentence, and she was released on October 29, 2021. And Heather and her daughter were promptly deported and sent back to Chicago.


Speaker 2 01:08:09

Now Heather wanted to stay in Indonesia. Because of Tommy, or because you’re like in Indonesia? Because she didn’t want to get deported, because she knew the Americans were going to nab her, right? So she’s like, all right, I did my time.


Speaker 2 01:08:19

I’m just going to stay here in Indonesia. Right, and they were like, no. And they’re like, no, you’re not. And she’s like, no, I have to, because my daughter was born here in Indonesia, and is an Indonesian citizen.


Speaker 2 01:08:29

And they’re like, no, she’s not. She’s like, no, that’s the rule. That’s the rule. And they’re like, no, we actually have different rules here, and we can decide based on a variety of certain, not in America, you know, we have that.


Speaker 2 01:08:40

You’re born here, you’re a citizen.


Speaker 3 01:08:42

born from a Indonesian person.


Speaker 2 01:08:45

Right. And also the circumstances were taken into consideration. They’re like, they’re like, you can’t stay here. Your daughter’s not in Indonesia. You have to go back to America. And the second- You can’t just go to Malaysia?


Speaker 2 01:08:56

Nope. They were like, you are going back to America. And the second she lands in O ‘Hare in like November-


Speaker 3 01:09:06

is right there, ready to, they cuffed her, the girl.


Speaker 2 01:09:11

And the baby immediately goes into custody with an attorney. Oh this poor kid. Yeah and so Now Heather is you know in the American justice system and meanwhile Bobby bibs Bobby bibs back in the Bobby bibs.


Speaker 2 01:09:27

Yes has been sentenced to nine years in American jail, which by


Speaker 3 01:09:32

By the way, it was a plea. He was arrested on September 23rd, 2015 and pled guilty on December 13th to one count of conspiracy to commit foreign murder of a U .S. national


Speaker 2 01:09:48

That’s a, that’s a thing. So he’s in jail for nine years.


Speaker 1 01:09:53

actually people in jail for for less that have done more well that’s like you


Speaker 2 01:09:59

like, but we go in there.


Speaker 5 01:10:03

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!


Speaker 3 01:10:10

Let’s go then.


Speaker 2 01:10:11

What are your thoughts on why people are in jail who’ve done less for more?


Speaker 3 01:10:16

Well, he’s not rich, he can’t afford big fancy counsel to advocate on his behalf, and he’s black. Mm hmm. In that order? I won’t say which order, but I’m just, what I’m saying is, all right, so he’s that young black dude that they’re like.


Speaker 3 01:10:36

Not rich. Yeah. Not, you know, so.


Speaker 1 01:10:39

that have manslaughter and whatever, totally, totally good.


Speaker 3 01:10:43

But to be clear, he was running his mouth. Mm -hmm.


Speaker 2 01:10:47

He should not run his mouth. He should not run his mouth.


Speaker 3 01:10:49

Right. Right.


Speaker 2 01:10:50

No, I mean look the guy regardless of the murder. He didn’t do the murder, but he he definitely Was like if someone calls you and is like hey, I want to kill somebody I’m gonna pay you to help me figure out how to do it the second you start engaging with that You are part of this crime.


Speaker 2 01:11:05

You’re not doing it. You’re not going to be found guilty of the murder, but you’re definitely right Conspirate a co -conspirator


Speaker 1 01:11:13

Right. He should have got off because they didn’t listen to a goddamn thing. He said, well, right. He’s like, you’re going to look different. So I don’t see how what I wrote is what this movie turns like.


Speaker 1 01:11:25

I was, I was so credit.


Speaker 2 01:11:27

I was hired to advise this company on fire safety. They didn’t put the fire extinguishers anywhere. I said people died. That’s not my fault Yeah, if only if only yeah, so yeah, so mr. Biggs Mr. Bibbs


Speaker 1 01:11:51

Yeah, well, Tommy is still languishing, and- Tommy’s still- But not-


Speaker 3 01:11:54

No, he’s not languishing because he’s found the Lord. We’ll be right back.


Speaker 2 01:12:00

Which, Lord, Kim, are you doing the, are you doing tongues? What’s happening?


Speaker 1 01:12:04

Here. No way.


Speaker 3 01:12:06

I know I’m just saying that he’s made it right with Jesus, okay, so he’s Jesus is his cellmate. No, no, Jesus is his his Savior and His Lord and he is building chapels. He’s baptizing people and he’s really turned it around for himself


Speaker 1 01:12:25

Okay, don’t get the Christians mad at us again, honey. I’m not. I’m just saying that there’s nothing to do with it. Why would anyone be mad at that? I don’t know. That’s what happened.


Speaker 3 01:12:31

I mean, he’s baptizing people. He’s in fact, he was up for parole in 2022 and he said, I have a debt to pay. Because he knows the second he gets out, they’re going to get him. Yeah, they’re not going to give him a break.


Speaker 3 01:12:45

He’s going to jail. I mean, he did the.


Speaker 2 01:12:47

He did. He’s confessed to doing the murder. So he might be playing the smart card of like, let me just see if I don’t leave Indonesian prison when I can and become an asset here.


Speaker 1 01:13:01

Just going out on a crazy limb feels like if you want to kill someone do it in Indonesia You might get away with it And if you get caught and you can kind of work around it you have a nicer prison experience.


Speaker 1 01:13:13

Well, you might


Speaker 2 01:13:15

Have a nicer, like, then and easier for the next parents.


Speaker 1 01:13:18

You’re just gone.


Speaker 2 01:13:19

So yeah, but like this is a case where I would say, you know, unlike a lot of times when we talk about Slaycations in foreign countries where Kim and I are like they got away with it because the country either didn’t process They take it serious Indonesia took it serious as fuck.


Speaker 2 01:13:31

Like they were like, no, we’re gonna fucking find these people we’re gonna put we’re gonna decide whether to Right kill them or put them in jail and then the second the second that this woman got out of jail in Indonesia Indonesia wasn’t like well, whatever happens They’re like, no, we’re sending you straight to the United States where you can deal with them So I would say, you know Indonesia and of all the cases we’ve covered seems like that’s the country that’s taken Yeah, the crime


Speaker 3 01:14:00

I read their prison system is kind of a mess being overcrowded.


Speaker 1 01:14:05

Well, you never hear about a prison system that’s under crowded like they’re all pretty much a mess, right? Yeah, or awesome


Speaker 3 01:14:12

Although she did seem to seem fine. She did. Yeah. And Tommy seems to be doing okay there as well.


Speaker 1 01:14:20

So he’s still in jail? Yes. And she’s back. She’s back. She’s in jail here.


Speaker 3 01:14:24

So she landed and yeah, they grabbed their ones. Right, right.


Speaker 2 01:14:28

Her case went to trial in 2023, where she copped the plea deal on conspiring, Kim said conspiring to kill a US national and foreign country and received a, actually just in January of this year. Just January 17th.


Speaker 2 01:14:46

Check your watch? Yeah, I looked at my watch to see. Yeah. I have a picture of her. Right. She received a 20.


Speaker 3 01:14:55

instance of 26 years in federal prison and ordered to pay restitution of 262 708 dollars and a $50 ,000 fine to her mother’s estate And her time in prison will be followed by five years of supervised Release okay


Speaker 1 01:15:20

it’s gonna be what, 40 something, 50, yeah.


Speaker 3 01:15:24

The kid is with her maternal cousin in Colorado.


Speaker 2 01:15:32

The Australian woman was in Indonesia, so the child still came back with her. There was actually like a kind of an interesting battle for the kid, right?


Speaker 3 01:15:42

Right. Everybody seemed to come out of the woodwork.


Speaker 2 01:15:44

And the kid, you know, besides wanting to be helpful for the kid, there’s a $1 .6 million trust fund that would have gone to Heather. And in order to get around what they call the sleigh, what is it called?


Speaker 2 01:15:57

The slaycation. No, it’s called the slay money or something.


Speaker 3 01:16:04



Speaker 2 01:16:04

is a term I’m trying to it’s a it’s a it’s a non -legal term for the legal thing where you don’t give you don’t allow a murderer to profit from their crime right and so this is complicated isn’t it the son of Sam thing or no no it’s like it’s something slay which I should remember she was called Slaycation but the idea was you can’t leave this trust with Heather because in effect that would be allowing her to profit and her attorneys are like no she had the trust anyways yeah


Speaker 3 01:16:33

She was able to, through the judge, she was able to get access to her trust to pay her legal fees.


Speaker 4 01:16:40



Speaker 3 01:16:41

and whatever black male, not black male, whatever bribes that she could get for special treatments within the jail.


Speaker 2 01:16:48

She spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in Indonesia to bribe authorities.


Speaker 3 01:16:52

So they say. OK.


Speaker 1 01:16:54

So they’re tough, but they’re bribable.


Speaker 3 01:16:56

Her case was heard not by a jury of her peers, but a three -judge panel heard the case, and they were actually very sympathetic to her, citing that their leniency came largely due in part for compassion of the baby.


Speaker 2 01:17:13

Yeah. The money was then put in trust for the baby. And so then, you know, I’m not saying these people were like after the money, but a lot of people came out of the woodwork wanting to take care of the child.


Speaker 1 01:17:26

People didn’t come out of the woodwork to help when the fighting was happening and all the crazy…


Speaker 2 01:17:32

people didn’t know as much.


Speaker 3 01:17:34

Well, Sheila, she was in touch with quite a few friends about her out of control kid.


Speaker 2 01:17:41

Her one friend, Diana, Diana Roke Ellis, also a socialite name, was Sheila’s best friend, and she wanted to take care of Stella. And she, even in her appeal for why she would be the best home, and she felt a calling, and I don’t doubt she really did, but she said one thing that I think may have prejudiced the court against her, which was she made a point of saying in her appeal for why she would be the best home for Stella, she said, I want to be clear, I have my own money, I have my own living, I don’t have any interest in the money that would come with taking care of Stella, and that’s just like a little bit, like even if it’s sincere.


Speaker 2 01:18:20

Protesting too much? Even if it’s sincere, in this case, it could have come across as, you know, I think also the money.


Speaker 1 01:18:28

All 1 .6 million of it which could buy a lot of things


Speaker 2 01:18:33

Imagine why someone would want 1 .6 million dollars. That’s not me. So then Grandma, Tommy’s mom, Kia, was like, I will take care of her. And the court, you know, the court’s always gonna be interested in trying to find a family home.


Speaker 2 01:18:46

And they, for whatever reason, decided that this cousin was best. By the way, thanks to Josh, our sound engineer, for his help here, it was the slayer rule. That’s what I was trying to think of. The slayer rule is what prohibits murderers from inheriting money from their victims.


Speaker 2 01:19:03

I don’t think slayer rule is necessarily a legal term, but it’s a term that’s used, you know, it’s like we have to always make sure that we don’t allow people to profit from murdering rather people, so.


Speaker 2 01:19:15

And of course-


Speaker 1 01:19:16

I often think that Slayer rules, but I’m usually talking about the fan.


Speaker 2 01:19:20

Different situations.


Speaker 1 01:19:21



Speaker 3 01:19:21

Heather had talked about her childhood and apparently there was domestic violence according to her growing up and she had said that she had seen her father smack her mother around and that when her father had become wheelchair bound she had noted that the dynamic had shifted that her mother while not physically abusive had would taunt him.


Speaker 3 01:19:43

So that’s a very healthy environment for a child to grow up in and witness. And the other thing that she had noted was how when they were arguing at that hotel she had said that her mother had made racial slurs towards Tommy.


Speaker 3 01:20:03

She had said that her mother had called him the Edward. She had said that obviously from her perspective grew up experiencing some things that likely didn’t endear her mother to her.


Speaker 1 01:20:18

I mean, it’s hard to, my mom’s racist, she married a black man, had a biracial kid, but


Speaker 3 01:20:25

And yeah, but you could still be racist, though. I don’t like the way you’re looking at me. I’m not saying, all I’m saying, I’m just saying, people tend to think that if you were married to a black person or friends with a black person, that means that you’re not racist.


Speaker 2 01:20:45

Loving the murder? We’ve got more right after this quick word from our sponsor.


Speaker 1 01:20:53

All right, now back to location.


Speaker 2 01:20:58

Here’s a question about this case that I think it’s kind of intriguing to me is, so Heather, the daughter, she had this $1 .6 million trust that her mother had set up for her, right? And so, you know, wherever that money came from, we don’t know, but we know we know that she was denied the half a million dollars from when her father died, but she did have a $1 .6 million trust.


Speaker 2 01:21:20

That’s an indisputable fact. She was getting a little bit of money every year, but when she turned 30, she was going to get the bulk of it, right? So why was she so set on murdering her mother? That’s the part I couldn’t figure out, because they have this tumultuous relationship, but they always have.


Speaker 2 01:21:38

It’s not a money thing, because she actually stood to be in a somewhat better, like, the risk of this. A better position by not committing murder. By not committing murder, which is, by the way, it’s almost impossible.


Speaker 1 01:21:48

Always the case she’s young she’s stupid her frontal lobes are still


Speaker 2 01:21:53

She’s not that young. She’s a nerd.


Speaker 3 01:21:55

20s right well she’s in her 20s now but at the time she was 19 I mean you’re not


Speaker 2 01:22:02

A little bit out of the crazy teenagers.


Speaker 1 01:22:05

Oh, is the parents of a 19 -year -old let me explain something to you?


Speaker 2 01:22:10

I know but she’s not 15. No, no, but she’s not that she’s not that impulsive like your daughter Is not as a police tell me about my daughter. No, here’s she went


Speaker 3 01:22:23

through a period where she was losing her damn mind. She sure was, but I can tell you once that she was not putting hands on anybody in our house. I’m just saying.


Speaker 2 01:22:33

Right. But I’m saying like, why did Heather, why was she so bent on doing this?


Speaker 1 01:22:40

influence more? I don’t know. That’s what you think. Here’s the thing. Just a hatred.


Speaker 3 01:22:45

Angela was blaming Tommy, like she was saying Tommy was a bad influence. But you know what? At the end of the day, it’s still on you. I would always say that to my kid, you have the choice, you make the decision.


Speaker 1 01:23:00

But this this whole trip became a murder trip this trip wasn’t planned execution


Speaker 3 01:23:06

talked about it constantly. You know, interest. There’s no interest.


Speaker 2 01:23:10

insurance policy, there’s no, you know, the only thing, you know, it’s like the only thing you stand to gain is your mom’s not around anymore. But like the risk, I don’t know, the risk side of it is so crazy.


Speaker 3 01:23:21

at her mother. I think she was angry at her mother. I think that her mom was an easy, convenient place to just kind of lay the blame of everything, lay the blame on her father’s death. She had even remarked that, you know, her mom just drank and complained that her dad died.


Speaker 3 01:23:40

She was angry. I think there’s something a little extra about a person that can be, because I’m angry. I mean, look, I did not grow up in unicorn sunshine land. Either. In fact, I would even say I grew up in a much toxic situation.


Speaker 3 01:23:58

Much toxic? Much more toxic.


Speaker 2 01:24:02

Also that comment was toxic, which what you just said. Thank you. That was toxic


Speaker 1 01:24:08

I just wanted to say it right. No, see. One star.


Speaker 3 01:24:12

I would say personality disorder, but I’m not a therapist or in a position to


Speaker 1 01:24:16

that much trauma. I mean, I’m sure she missed a lot of school. I’m sure there was a lot of bad shit going on. So who knows what like her mental state is and who knows how mature she is. I mean, she is doing stuff that’s so stupid and leaving such a blatant trail, you know, buying a business class ticket for her boyfriend, booking him a hotel in a credit card that her mom is going to get the bill and see, why is there an extra $15 ,000 on my card?


Speaker 1 01:24:43

She is not thinking about, you know, and again, back and forth on text and email. This girl is not thinking things through. She is just motivated by rage, like what you’re saying, Kim? Yeah, no, she’s angry.


Speaker 1 01:24:59

And motivated by like, I want to get rid of this problem. She’s a problem in my life. And I think Tommy’s an idiot for going along with it too.


Speaker 3 01:25:08

Well, he allegedly he had a girlfriend before Heather. Did you see this? He had a girlfriend before Heather that had died in a car accident just a few months before him and Heather connected. And that was traumatic.


Speaker 1 01:25:23

like you’re saying, or if you were part of it, there was a fruit ball underneath the brick. Right.


Speaker 3 01:25:28

I mean, you know, at the end of the day, the motivation, it just felt that she hated her mother and was wanting to manifest that in some way.


Speaker 1 01:25:41

I’m just glad I can’t fit in a suitcase.


Speaker 2 01:25:44

I just don’t know why you imagine like I just think there’s always another way like in this case she could have just Left home Yeah, they figured some shit out or like got in the she was kind of doing that anyway, right?


Speaker 2 01:26:01

Just leave home You got trust fund coming giving you money every every month or every year Get a little job Tommy get a job whenever and just just leave and just cut off the relationship or put boundaries around the relationship with the mom that You hate yeah but all of the energy and time and money and thought that went into this planning of a murder and like all like It’s like oh my god.


Speaker 2 01:26:25

It just put that energy into your music


Speaker 3 01:26:28

I think the other thing too that has to be recognized is Sheila was afraid of her daughter. Sheila endured abuse from her daughter. Sheila unfortunately did not follow through with things that could have protected her like pressing charges and being actively involved in making sure that she is addressed and go to jail.


Speaker 3 01:26:57

No because the reality of it is if you’re playing with kids they’re gonna think they can play with you. I don’t want to blame her though either. I’m not blaming Sheila but what I’m saying is is that this is domestic violence and her daughter unfortunately while it is her daughter she is her abuser okay and anybody out there that finds themselves afraid of their kid but it’s like uh but it’s my kid they still have to understand that they’re being abused and that they need to take whatever steps they need to to protect themselves because as we can see just because they’re your child doesn’t mean that they won’t hurt you.


Speaker 1 01:27:41

So booking a trip is probably not going.


Speaker 3 01:27:44

Right, right. I mean, interestingly enough, she had friends that told her I don’t think this is a good idea.


Speaker 1 01:27:51

The other thing I’ll add is Heather alone and Tommy alone aren’t doing it. It’s like two people that are both immature in thought, thinking they can get away with it young and dumb and egging each other on.


Speaker 1 01:28:06

You know, it’s like a toxic twins type of thing. And then they bring in the cousin and now there’s three of them and they’re just revving each other up. It’s like one of those things where two people that are just bad for each other that are crash.


Speaker 1 01:28:20

Yeah. Making it worse. And on a crash course with, with murder. Kim, was that your takeaway, I guess?


Speaker 3 01:28:27

Well, my takeaway is if your kid, I don’t care who it is, is putting their hands on you, then they need to go to jail. It’s not probably a popular thing, but given, if I’m having to call the police or the police has come into my house over 80 times, somebody’s, one of us is going to jail, one of us.


Speaker 3 01:28:50

She didn’t respect her mother. She obviously had no reverence for her mother and was just able to act out in the most aggressive, heinous way possible. So it was just.


Speaker 1 01:29:06

leading towards, uh… Right.


Speaker 3 01:29:08

domestic violence is is a real thing you you have to understand even though it’s not as common it’s still a thing


Speaker 4 01:29:20

Right. All right.


Speaker 2 01:29:21

Jerry, what do you got? This is yet another tricky case for us because it’s like there’s obviously some mental issues involved here and some trauma. So it’s easy to sit and say, you know, you should do this, you should do that logically.


Speaker 2 01:29:35

But when you’re in these situations and you’re young and you’re a parent and there’s just like trauma, it’s hard to think logically. And I think just always reminding yourself to listen to outside people you trust is a good thing.


Speaker 2 01:29:48

You know, if your friends are like, this is a bad idea or don’t go do this or, you know, whatever, listening to people you trust, trying to remember to do that is good.


Speaker 1 01:29:57

I was gonna say, go through your kid’s phone.


Speaker 2 01:30:00

Yeah, that’s not great though. No, I know where you’re going with that, but that’s like, I can’t go do your kid’s phone. I mean, you can, but you certainly can. You can. You certainly can.


Speaker 1 01:30:08

And you’ll find all kinds of stuff. Yeah. I’m just saying, if you’re fighting with your kid constantly and there’s, you know, their shit going down.


Speaker 3 01:30:16

What I find effective and it may not work for anybody is Your kid doesn’t want to have to give you their phone if they know that they’re subject to random checks if you make their lives as inhospitable as possible It may work.


Speaker 3 01:30:30

Mm -hmm but the thing is is you got to follow through you got to be consistent and You got to let them know that you’re not playing with that. Right? I have one one more piece of take


Speaker 2 01:30:40

Please check out the recordings of James Mack and you know all of the Brunswick records recordings are really good Highly recommended. That’s it. I think he’s he’s terrific. I’m sorry that I didn’t learn about him until this case But I’m really a fan of James Mack now Alright, that’s my my last useless piece of takeaway


Speaker 1 01:30:59

No, it’s good, that’s probably the best piece of takeaway. All right, well, thank you for joining us on another tragic, darkly comic, insane tale of a murder on vacation. This has been Slaycation.


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