Ep. 9 African Safari Hunter becomes the Hunted

A rich dentist and his wife take a safari trip to Zambia to hunt exotic animals. However, the hunter becomes the hunted when one of them is shot dead. Was it an accident, a suicide or… murder?


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our transcript


Speaker 1 00:00



Speaker 2 00:01

What are you drinking? Oh, those things are good.


Speaker 1 00:03

They are so good.


Speaker 2 00:05

We should get them to advertise on the show.


Speaker 1 00:07

We should. Yeah. Yeah, you don’t.


Speaker 2 00:08

get jittery from him. Yeah.


Speaker 1 00:09

I have to take heroin, cocaine with it.


Speaker 2 00:13

we were drinking it was that we were creating that Bruce thing and Adams like oh look they have a thing of Celsius that doesn’t have caffeine but it’s good energy or I misheard him but I just started pounding them and then like after like three or four of him I’m like these have caffeine


Speaker 1 00:38

Alright pack your body bags. We’re going on a slaycation. How’s everybody doing today? I was always wondering like do I have to announce us every time? Yes. Yeah for sure. Yeah. Yeah, what if


Speaker 2 00:48

Someone’s never heard the show before, and they want to know what to do.


Speaker 1 00:51

in that because like on the tonight show like hi I’m Julie Fallon that’s the band and they say the name so yeah


Speaker 2 00:56

they always introduce share coast and yeah so I don’t see why we’re not certainly not more famous than no people certainly though in certain quarters maybe but generally right so I’m gonna


Speaker 1 01:07

Yes, okay in that case. I’m Adam Tex Davis. I’m a writer and true crime superstar That is my wife who is my number one fan I am hello Kim hi, honey And I’ve got my buddy Jerry here every hey guys Before we start someone asked me why do we do vacation murders like why did we choose this very narrow lane?


Speaker 1 01:37

The true crime superhighway why vacation murders because no one else has


Speaker 2 01:44

It’s all that’s left.


Speaker 1 01:47

You know, I was going to say though, for me as a screenwriter, storyteller, I like to gravitate towards stories that, you know, they play out like movies and a lot of these location stories are just like, they’re like horror movies or dramas or tragedies, sometimes tragic comedies based on the stupid ways these people get caught.


Speaker 1 02:04

But they have the twists and the turns that hook you in and the things like, is this person a villain or just wrongfully accused or an accident?


Speaker 3 02:12



Speaker 2 02:12

We’re just misunderstood. A misunderstood murderer. When you first started talking to me about this idea, I mean, 10 or 12 years ago, right? We were talking about- We were on vacation. It came up because we were somewhere, and we were talking about murdering people when you’re away, and how it seems like- We were talking about business insurance.


Speaker 2 02:31

That’s what it was. Oh, yeah. We were supposed to have insurance policies on each other for the business. And then we started talking about, well, how would we kill each other to collect the money and get away with it?


Speaker 2 02:40

And we decided we would do it while we were away, because you wouldn’t be expecting it, or I wouldn’t be expecting it. Yeah, that’s a good point. And then we started looking into murders on vacation.


Speaker 2 02:51

You made the point, like, they’re very cinematic. They’re very full of rich detail. They’re exotic locations.


Speaker 1 02:58

Yeah, unexpected


Speaker 3 02:59

twisted turns right not like your house right like that was boring


Speaker 1 03:05

It is and then you know, we find out that a lot of these cases that we did cover like they did become movies On lifetime, you know, that’s true movies


Speaker 2 03:15

At this point, what murder hasn’t been a movie?


Speaker 1 03:18

But you know, it’s gotta have the requisite twists and turns the was it a murderer accident Did they do it not them who that’s all the stuff that that lends the richness to these and the other


Speaker 2 03:29

that’s interesting is when a murder, especially when an American citizen happens overseas, there’s only a few countries in which you’re going to get an investigation that’s in any way similar to what would happen in the US.


Speaker 2 03:40

A lot of places just don’t investigate properly or investigate in ways that make it incredibly complicated to figure out what actually happened. Especially in the weird twist with that is there’s a lot of really popular tourist destinations that will deliberately under -investigate because they want things to look like an accident and they don’t want to send a message that it’s a dangerous place to go.


Speaker 2 04:04

So there’s that aspect as well. The investigations also are very different.


Speaker 3 04:08

They don’t want their tourism.


Speaker 1 04:10

Right. Plus we came up with a fun title, which is half the battle. Speaking of, honey, where are we slaycating today?


Speaker 3 04:20

Today, our slaycating expedition brings us to a scenic opulent safari adventure in Zambia.


Speaker 1 04:33



Speaker 3 04:35

Yes. A country in southern Africa, in Kauafee National Park. Okay, cool. What do you guys think of when you hear the word safari? What comes to mind?


Speaker 1 04:48

I mean, there’s like the hunting ones, which I am so not into, and then there’s the looking at animals one. Right, right. I’m not into animals.


Speaker 3 04:55

to either, just to be honest, but I did not even realize that they were hunting safaris. Oh, did you know that, Jerry? I didn’t know.


Speaker 2 05:06

You know, I only I’d say in the last decade sort of made that connection. But do you remember that Cecil the Lion? Oh, my God. That’s right. That was a dentist, I think. Yeah, the dentist that killed the lion, the lion.


Speaker 2 05:18

And by naming the lion, it became an issue. But that was that was on a hunting safari. That’s right. I think that was 20 years.


Speaker 1 05:25

The Trump kids go on the safari and pose with dead giraffes and other things.


Speaker 3 05:30

Well, what I didn’t realize was how expensive that is. Do you know how it’s? Yes. Take a wild guess. What do you think? Just give a range. Josh, what do you think it would take to go on an African hunting Ferrari?


Speaker 3 05:46

Josh is not on mike, so.


Speaker 1 05:48

We can. We can.


Speaker 3 05:49

We can say what he says. What do you think it would cost to just, we’re not even talking about anything like the flight or anything, we’re talking about just the price tag. you


Speaker 1 05:59

Josh is an avid rhino hunter, so he knows exactly to the penny. He knows to the penny. He’s like the most unlikely thing that I would ever say about that. Jerry, what would you pay to kill exotic animals?


Speaker 1 06:09

I would pay to not kill exotic animals. Exactly. I would pay to kill the people who are killing exotic animals.


Speaker 2 06:15

I think that whole thing is just so, I have nothing against hunting in general, especially if you’re hunting and eating it or whatever, but to go out for the sole purpose of killing majestic animals, to hang them on your wall just seems, it’s just not for me, I think it’s gross.


Speaker 1 06:30

The things that they make like they were making ashtrays out of like an elephant’s foot and like fly swatters out of tail Like I don’t know pretty and they’re also


Speaker 2 06:39

The other thing that I learned about these hunting safaris is they’re so lame in terms of the hunt. Like, there are people that I know in my family who hunt deer, right? And it’s like a process, like you have to go, you have to wait, you’re on your own, it’s cold, you know, you got to take care of the deer yourself, skin it, cut it up for meat and all that.


Speaker 2 06:59

That’s like real hunting. These safari hunting, they, it’s all set up for you, right? So you’re, you are going to get what you came for. They’ve set it up.


Speaker 1 07:09

Yeah, for that kind of money, I guess, which we haven’t figured out how much.


Speaker 2 07:13

saying all this is my pretext for what I’m guessing it’s an extraordinary amount. I assume it’s a crazy amount of money. You take a guess, Jerry. I’m guessing, and are we, is it like you go out and you get to kill all five of the big five or is it like, how does it work?


Speaker 2 07:26

The big five? Who are the big five? Is it the big three, right? It’s like Rhino, Giraffe, Lion, Jaguar. It’s so crazy. So it’s the wild.


Speaker 3 07:34

White Rhino is actually the one most expensive and carries with it. But aren’t those-


Speaker 1 07:39

Uh, like, uh, I thought those were on the endangered list.


Speaker 2 07:42

Sorry. You’re about to be on the endangered list.


Speaker 3 07:48

Well, as I was saying, the White Rhino has a price tag of $125 ,000. That does not include anything else. That’s just when you check off a box that says White Rhino.


Speaker 2 08:05

That doesn’t include the actual place you stay and all that kind of stuff. That’s just the…


Speaker 3 08:10

It doesn’t include the plane fare. It doesn’t include the travel it takes to get to the place that you’re staying at the lodgings.


Speaker 2 08:18

times more than what I would have thought was the most expensive amount.


Speaker 1 08:21

I was gonna say a hundred thousand dollars. Okay, right. I was gonna say a hundred thousand dollars Because that’s just a stupid number, right?


Speaker 2 08:30

Certainly nothing better you could do with $125 ,000, right? Until…


Speaker 3 08:34

I thought they were endangered. Well, that’s a whole other thing. Here’s the thing. The reality of it is, as we can see, it’s all about money, and when you have lots of money, pretty much you can do anything you want.


Speaker 3 08:47

That’s it in a nutshell.


Speaker 2 08:50

The southern white rhino, once thought to be extinct, it is now thriving in protected sanctuaries, which means maybe they’re allowed to breed them for hunting, I don’t know.


Speaker 3 08:58

understand how that works. That’s why probably it’s so expensive. But you’re basically like, here’s a lot of money so that I can hunt this. Right. What about a regular Rhino? All right, it’s all expensive.


Speaker 3 09:13

Right. It’s all expensive.


Speaker 1 09:17

I don’t know why anyone would want to do that. I gotta be honest. I don’t know why. Why would you want to kill one of these things? I would pay so much money to go see it, enjoying its life.


Speaker 3 09:27

I love that we’re so neutral on the hunting issue. Right. No strong feelings here, guys.


Speaker 2 09:35

Specifically, the trophy hunting, that hunting in general, I don’t have any issue with it. I think it’s fine. It’s the paying to go specifically kill an majestic animal that… Well look, for me… It’s for no reason other than just…


Speaker 2 09:50

It doesn’t feel fair.


Speaker 3 09:51

fun. No. Fun fact, 60% of all safari hunting is done and supported by Americans. I thought it’d be higher.


Speaker 2 10:01

Well, but I guess what is like British Americans Australians probably


Speaker 1 10:07

who live there. No. And now this is the richest nation, right?


Speaker 2 10:13

I think we’ve set the stage. All right, so this takes place in this opulent trophy hunting. All right. Yes, yes.


Speaker 3 10:21

So our sleigh case today revolves around Lawrence Patrick Rudolph, known as Larry, and Bianca Teresa Venezio Rudolph. He doesn’t have a nickname? No, we’re gonna just call her Bianca. So it’s Larry and Bianca.


Speaker 3 10:37

Okay, Larry and Bianca met at the University of Pittsburgh and the lore is that it was love at first sight, or at least the one undergrad that would go out with him. Who knows? Either way, they ended up together.


Speaker 3 10:51

Larry was attending the dental school at the University and Bianca was a pretty undergrad there. They coupled up, married in 1982, and together they would go on to have two children, a girl, Anna Bianca, and a boy, Julian.


Speaker 3 11:06

And the daughter would actually follow in her father’s footsteps. Her father was a dentist.


Speaker 1 11:11

That’s what the dentists and the animals say.


Speaker 3 11:15

Well, the sun went on to law school. Anyway, as you can probably guess by our topic of discussion here. I think I just did. Larry and Bianca very much enjoyed the wealth and reap the rewards of Larry’s thriving dental practice, Three Rivers Dental.


Speaker 3 11:33

Traveling and hunting and going on these hunting safaris were a family affair and definitely stalking big prey was a hobby both Larry and Bianca immensely enjoyed. It was a trip that they would pretty much take once or twice a year, if not even more.


Speaker 3 11:48

Wow. Yeah, it wasn’t unusual even for them to, for her even to go alone. Gee whiz. So they were very serious about this. This was…


Speaker 1 11:58

Look, you’re a dentist and all day you gotta just stare into people’s gaping maws and like whatever. Maybe that does make you want to kill stuff. Well, you’d think, but…


Speaker 3 12:10

okay all right she didn’t yeah she wasn’t doing it but you know to be honest he wasn’t either at a certain point but that’s a whole other thing they even had a cabin that they kept in this particular safari so they


Speaker 1 12:23

going to Africa. Yeah. Okay. To. To hunt. Zambia. Right. Okay.


Speaker 2 12:28

Right specifically they were hunting on this particular trip. They were hunting a particular leopard. Mm -hmm. Was it leopard or jaguar? Am I getting that right? No, it’s a leopard rate That that Bianca really really wanted to kill


Speaker 3 12:42

Yeah, she really needed to check that leopard off. She needed, it was important.


Speaker 2 12:49

Right. They’re there with their leopard hunting.


Speaker 3 12:52

Yes. And both of them had become members of the Safari Club International, which protects the right to hunt. And they had become members in 1986.


Speaker 2 13:02

Yes, he had actually become the president at some point. Yeah, at some point, but Larry was.


Speaker 1 13:08

president of this hunting organization. He had in 2000.


Speaker 2 13:10

In 2009, he’d become president of Safari Club International. And he even got the award, called the Weatherby Award? Yes, which is a very prestigious award. It’s awarded for killing the hugest number of animals in multiple places.


Speaker 1 13:24

Huge number. Yeah, not the largest number you like you got to kill


Speaker 2 13:30

A lot of animals in a lot of different places they kill there’s a lot of people who kill a large number of animals You got to kill a huge number of animals to get that word. I’m quoting not from the official award description Okay, but from people who are familiar with it They don’t say how many but it’s like you got to be out there all the time killing animals to get this thing It’s it’s a real fun


Speaker 1 13:48

is wrong with people


Speaker 3 13:49

Yeah, well this group they pride themselves as a conservation hunting and advocacy group between Bianca and Larry between them they scored ten lions a polar bear elephant a leopard and Can you guess?


Speaker 3 14:08

White rhino. Yes That’s right. That is correct for 125


Speaker 1 14:14

$1 ,000 you are correct. That’s right All right, so I hate these people please get eaten


Speaker 2 14:23

I knew, I knew you were going to want both of them dead as soon as we said this. I was like, there’s going to be zero sympathy for anyone in this case, and I hope there’s irony to it. I hope she’s


Speaker 1 14:33

Listen to Jeff Leppard while it’s happening. Easy. Easy. Easy.


Speaker 3 14:37

Ah, easy.


Speaker 2 14:38

player, actually. Easy.


Speaker 3 14:39

Easy, easy guys.


Speaker 1 14:41

All right, sorry, we’ll simmer simmer. Oh my god much to hunt a Larry relax


Speaker 3 14:45

Let’s breathe Let’s take some deep breaths, okay


Speaker 1 14:52

You picked the case, don’t get me all riled up, you knew this was gonna happen.


Speaker 3 14:55

I did. I did. I was… You went…


Speaker 2 14:58

probably the biggest animal lover in the world. I know, I know. So, you know.


Speaker 3 15:03

I know it’s


Speaker 1 15:05

It’s true. I’ve had half a Celsius. I’m ready to fucking throw punches at Larry in his stupid ways. I mean, the animals in our


Speaker 3 15:11

house have Adam beautifully trained okay I’m aware I mean it’s pretty they even let him sleep in your bed sometimes oh absolutely they take him out for walks it’s pretty at any time discipline is not


Speaker 2 15:23

a thing. No. With those animals. No.


Speaker 1 15:25

If not. They’re good animals.


Speaker 2 15:28

Thank you.


Speaker 3 15:29

Anyway, I love it!


Speaker 2 15:29

some of your animals that’s right you don’t like our


Speaker 1 15:32

Our cat stole Jerry’s lunch one time.


Speaker 3 15:37

I remember that.


Speaker 2 15:37

Just not just a little bit of it just really just went in there and took all my lunch I do like him. I like OJ


Speaker 1 15:43

He did surgically open your sandwich, grab a hunk of turkey, and run away, and you wouldn’t have even seen him. I think I saw it. He didn’t do that. It was crazy. Yeah, you wouldn’t have even noticed.


Speaker 2 15:53

But that’s also what I learned. I for some reason never knew his name was OJ, right? And then I learned that right which also Is appropriate since he brings dead animals into your house. Yes


Speaker 3 16:04

It’s funny because nobody will call him Ojek. What do you mean? Oh yeah, we know.


Speaker 1 16:08

Yeah, he’s an orange tabby cat his name is OJ, but we say orange Julius But we actually call him tiny tiger because he looks like a tiny tiger little tiger and a fucking Larry and Bianca tried to shoot fucking tiny tiger


Speaker 2 16:22

Easy easy that’s obviously I love looted death. I’ve actually come around on OJ. I like OJ man He’s grown on me right


Speaker 3 16:32

When he had to go to the vet, nobody would say, oh, Jay.


Speaker 1 16:36

Well, they just call him Orange. They just call him Orange. Which is funny, because he’s an orange cat, and they’re just like, Orange? It’s like, we’re not stupid.


Speaker 3 16:43

So I insist they call him mr. Julius Just out of respect. I’m like, you don’t know him like that Anyway, anyway, so it was on September 27 2016 in the year of our Lord Bianca and Larry boarded a flight from Arizona began the journey to Zambia where they’re hunting Hijinks would commence at kafui National Park Bianca was the only one slated for this Trip to hunt this go -around But Larry was gonna be in attendance because he was gonna go and offer his support and help his wife bag that leopard that she’s so Desperately wanted she had been trying to bag this leopard apparently for some time and well was the ever elusive right


Speaker 1 17:34

You just want to go master -based at pictures of dead animals.


Speaker 2 17:37

Which can I just I’m just I’m just going to do this for a second. Can we can we can we get to the story? I got to just ask you one thing, right? Because we know they’ve gone a few times to try and kill a leopard, right?


Speaker 2 17:51

Yeah. Do you think that the game, you know, because the guides who run the place, do you think they deliberately make it so she doesn’t kill a leopard multiple times? That’s a good question to keep them coming back and spending money.


Speaker 3 18:03

I don’t know, but to be honest with you, as devoted and it’s like my love of yarn. I’m going to keep coming back. It doesn’t matter. If somebody said to me, here’s all the yarn, but there’s one skein somewhere that I would need to find that yarn.


Speaker 1 18:21

hunt sheep. It was paying $125 ,000 for a ball of yarn. She paid $6 ,000 to shoot a yak. No, I didn’t. Can I ask one question? So this, this, this National Park, Kefui? Yeah, Kefui National Park. It’s both a hunting and a viewing?


Speaker 1 18:41

Or is it just for hunting? And is it a huge place where wild animals are roaming free? Or is it like sort of a pen where these idiots come in? I believe I read that it’s the size of


Speaker 2 18:54

Jersey. Yeah, I mean there’s


Speaker 3 18:56

different parts of it. They have a part that’s sort of cordoned off for hunting. Just like New Jersey. So they arrived at this park and they brought with them Remington 375 rifle and a Browning 12 -gauge shotgun and the next 10 days would be spent on the lookout and high alert for the ever elusive prey that is a leopard.


Speaker 1 19:20

Do they just shoot other random things on the way? Yes, I’m glad you asked. I’m glad you asked. Name an animal.


Speaker 3 19:27

Yes, yes this trip Bianca would bag a hippo Zebra a warthog and impala, but the ever elusive car The leopard would remain out of reach lucky leopard


Speaker 1 19:44

Yeah, I hate these people.


Speaker 2 19:47

It’s an interesting case because there’s it might be the first case we’ve done where you already know, unless this is about the murder of an animal, a animal, we already know you have no sympathy for whoever’s.


Speaker 1 19:59

No, sympathy for the hunters, yeah. And look, if you’re a hunter out there that likes to pay a lot of money and go to Africa and shoot majestic big game animals, I don’t like you. Don’t say it. I don’t like you either.


Speaker 1 20:10

Just, just, just. I don’t like you either.


Speaker 4 20:14



Speaker 3 20:16

You have very strong feelings about this. You don’t? I’m trying to tell a story.


Speaker 1 20:23

Okay, wow, you got your storyteller hat on and you’re I do I do one time ever Tim has taken emotion out of it. So their trip was coming to a


Speaker 3 20:33

Now did they pay for a certain amount of time? Yeah, they it was like 10 days like from September 27th to October 11th It would be October 11th 2016 that’s a long trip. Yeah more than 10. Yeah. Well


Speaker 1 20:47

or maybe not okay anyway whatever so she’s she’s killing everything in sight but she can’t get her hands on that goddamn leopard right you must die leopard right right right


Speaker 3 20:57

She couldn’t spot it on this early morning of October 11th. They were at the Safari camp in their cabin Larry kills her


Speaker 1 21:07

He has an epiphany, he wakes up, this is wrong, you bitch, what are you doing?


Speaker 3 21:12

Well, it was suggested to Bianca, I think by one of the guides, if she wanted to stay a few extra days, but they had a wedding to get back to. Their nephew was getting married, so they had to decline that offer.


Speaker 3 21:28

So it was the morning of October 11th, in the early morning hours on a Tuesday, and a leopard attacked. No. Wouldn’t that be great? That would be awesome. But a loud blast would be heard from the cabin.


Speaker 3 21:52

Oh. It’s just the two of them? Yes. Okay. Yes. And so upon hearing the gunshot blast and the commotion, the hunting guide and the game scout who works closely with the Rudolphs on these adventures came rushing to the cabin.


Speaker 3 22:08

And to their absolute horror, they found Bianca on her back, on the floor, bleeding profusely from a gaping bat wound to the left part of her chest. The hole was like, they said, six to eight centimeters.


Speaker 3 22:27

I don’t know how much a hole. It’s a big hole.


Speaker 1 22:28

Was she wearing a leopard costume?


Speaker 3 22:31

No, no, no, she wasn’t. But the guide had. Mistaken identity.


Speaker 1 22:37

I was trying, I was trying, buddy. Sorry, I was trying, I was trying.


Speaker 2 22:41

I’m not so, we gotta just stop for that. Sorry, that was funny. Yes.


Speaker 1 22:46

Okay, so she’s dead on the ground, Lowry’s there.


Speaker 3 22:49

Yeah, and he’s hysterical. He’s crying. He’s hysterical. He’s crying. He’s…


Speaker 1 22:55

Oh, it just went off.


Speaker 3 22:57

Yes, and apparently the guide said that he had cried out my wife committed suicide. What am I going to tell my children? Oh my goodness So there was some she really wanted that leopard Yeah, and anyway, she really didn’t want to go to that wedding Anyway, anyway, you don’t have to do it every line oh my god like, you know Anyway, so so he he he screamed out and he was hysterical and he ran to a nearby river And just and just was like i’m gonna drown myself I’m gonna commit suicide like my wife committed suicide and he was doing all this Performative or whatever the hell that was that he was doing that and the guide calmed him down and said no And and and he was able to calm larry down Then larry calmed down and then suggested that perhaps it was just a tragic accident and that maybe She accidentally shot herself while putting the gun in the bag


Speaker 5 24:06

The Hargan women seemed to have it all. From the outside looking in, we were blessed. My mom was amazing. But as detectives would soon learn, there was a lot going on inside the Hargan household.


Speaker 6 24:18

Ashley and I have been calling my mom and the house and Helen, no one’s answering.


Speaker 5 24:24

63 -year -old Pamela Hargan gunned down in her own home. Her youngest daughter Helen lay dead upstairs.


Speaker 3 24:31

Patrol, when they arrived, assumed or thought that there might


Speaker 2 24:34

have been a murder suicide.


Speaker 5 24:36

But for the detectives on the scene… There were things about the scene itself that were concerning to us on day one. Who would want to kill their mother and their little sister? There is no boogeyman here.


Speaker 5 24:49

It is exactly who we think it is. I’m Peter Vance, sat from 48 hours. This is Blood is Thicker, The Hargen Family Killings. Listen to Blood is Thicker, The Hargen Family Killings, wherever you get your podcasts.


Speaker 6 25:07

Hello, this is Dr. Grande, the host of True Crime Psychology and Personality. On my podcast, I explore and explain the pathology behind some of the most horrendous crimes and those who commit them. We discuss topics like narcissism, psychopathy, sociopathy, and antisocial personality disorder from a scientifically informed perspective.


Speaker 6 25:29

What is a narcissist? How do you spot a sociopath? What science can you look for to protect yourself from these dangerous personalities? It’s not just about the stories, but also the science and psychology behind them.


Speaker 6 25:42

So, if you’re interested in true crime or mental health, I’d encourage you to give my show a listen wherever you get podcasts.


Speaker 3 25:50

In any event, it was clear that given the blood loss and the amount of time it would take for emergency first responders to get on site, Bianca Rudolph did not stand a chance of surviving that injury and she would die on this Tuesday, October 11th, 2016.


Speaker 1 26:06

First of all you really pack a loaded gun into your suitcase. Well


Speaker 2 26:10

No, no, and in fact Spencer kakoma the guide part of the guy’s job is to make sure everyone’s being safe so Spencer kakoma the guide who Was the one who came running over in a matter of seconds in fact from yeah shotgun blast He was just to set up a little bit of the scene It’s like five in the morning, which is when you’re getting up for hunting hunting, right?


Speaker 2 26:31

You’re right. You’re out the door pretty early. So the cabin is open. The doors are open the windows are on It’s not it’s not like the middle of the night 5 a .m Like huts or something or these they’re like, you know, they’re proper little cabin houses habits.


Speaker 2 26:44

Yeah, and they have a special cabin Right, they have a spell. Yeah, they have their own cabin that they enjoy like they I don’t they bought it or I think it was built So their staff going in and out bringing them coffee and helping them But the night before Spencer kakoma had checked and confirmed and and seen that Bianca had Definitely emptied the gun.


Speaker 2 27:05

He said he saw that live ammunition. Yeah, he watched her do that What she was doing that morning was cleaning the gun that was to pack it. So they’re leaving that day. They’re leaving Yeah, so there should not he saw her take the live ammunition out the night before so there’s no reason there should have been live ammo in the gun


Speaker 1 27:22

Mm, right. So well, but if she’s committing suicide, right, she’d put ammo in the gun. Right. Yeah, I love that. Like, oh, the kids, the kids, what are we going to do without, you know, without her? I’m going to go kill myself, too.


Speaker 1 27:35

Yeah, great idea. You know, I mean, obviously this is setting up a bullshit story here. You think I think how much you have to pay to kill her? What’s what does she cost on the menu? As you were saying.


Speaker 3 27:47

It was pretty evident that Larry was very interested in getting his wife’s remains cremated and making sure that this very horrible time would be put behind him. I mean, he was devastated. It’s not like he called family or his children, you know, he allegedly had said that he wanted to be able to hug them.


Speaker 1 28:15

Wait, wait, you’re saying he didn’t call them.


Speaker 3 28:17

No, no, not right away. In fact, they didn’t find out until like a week after the accident.


Speaker 1 28:22

So he’s there in Africa with his dead wife, and he’s more worried about having the body disposed of.


Speaker 3 28:29

having it cremated, having the investigation just sort of…


Speaker 1 28:34

investigating. No, he’s not investigating.


Speaker 3 28:37

But the Zambian.


Speaker 2 28:38

Right. They came and they said this is clearly a tragic accident. Right. Oh, they thought it was an accident. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. They thought there was no question. And so, yeah, he was eager to put it behind him.


Speaker 2 28:49

And he, you know, she he found a local funeral home right there. And it was going to it was a matter of a couple of days before she was going to be cremated. Right. Right.


Speaker 1 29:00

feed her to a leopard. All right, man.


Speaker 3 29:04

I don’t like her. This is my life.


Speaker 2 29:08

Anyway, there was one weird anomaly that Spencer could come with a guide. Just one. Well, there’s one particular one that Spencer noticed right away, which was when the police came. Larry was describing what happened.


Speaker 2 29:21

And he said he was in the.


Speaker 3 29:22

shower when this happened and yeah it’s okay when


Speaker 1 29:25

She interrupts. Interesting.


Speaker 3 29:27

To be fair


Speaker 2 29:28

when Kim interrupts, it’s like she’s working with me to tell the same story. Just buttress him.


Speaker 1 29:34

is what you’re saying, and I am just coming in with an asshole sledgehammer.


Speaker 2 29:38

I didn’t say any of that, but whatever you think, man. So, he tells the police that, you know, he was in the shower or come out of the shower who was wearing a towel, heard the shot, feet away from him.


Speaker 2 29:51

And Spencer Kokomo was like, well, that’s a weird thing to say because he was definitely fully dressed because he’d been, Spencer had been in and out of the cabin. At no point was Larry, you know, wearing a towel.


Speaker 2 30:02

It aroused some suspicion, but wasn’t in and of itself enough to… So, there’s just some…


Speaker 1 30:08

Fact didn’t match up. Mm -hmm. Okay


Speaker 3 30:11

There definitely were a number of little inconsistencies. And he, Larry, was really working behind the scenes to sort of get this locked and loaded, no pun intended, and just done. He wanted her cremated, he wanted the Zambian officials to check off that the investigation was done, he was cleared, and he would be able to go back home.


Speaker 3 30:37

And word was too that he had even bribed an official to feed along the process.


Speaker 2 30:45

Yeah, I read that, but I didn’t see any confirmation of it, but the thing is, whether he did or didn’t, you’ve got a very wealthy American at a game reserve who spends tons of money, pumps millions of dollars into the local economy.


Speaker 2 31:03

Unless there’s some obvious foul play, there wasn’t really any reason necessarily for the Zombian authorities to think there was anything amiss.


Speaker 1 31:12

didn’t get her leopard. She paid all that money. Ten days. You can be in a very disturbed space.


Speaker 3 31:18

Right, I guess if you know, but the word was too. She was looking forward to Her nephew’s wedding and seeing and being with her family. So I don’t know. I Definitely didn’t think you roll it up. Yeah.


Speaker 3 31:32



Speaker 2 31:33

There was one other interesting twist to this. So while, because she was a U .S. citizen, she was reported to the, it was whole thing was reported to the U .S. Embassy. And they were suspicious. They were.


Speaker 2 31:44

Well, one guy in particular, a former Marine. A guy named Otto Westhassle. Wasn’t he the counselor? I don’t know his official position. I know he was with the U .S. Embassy there. He’s a former Marine.


Speaker 2 31:56

He heard about this. He was suspicious because he thought it was odd that Larry was rushing so quickly. He said the whole thing feels like it’s moving too fast. He heard that Bianco was going to be cremated two days after the shooting.


Speaker 1 32:10

If you’ve ever been to the dentist, these guys take their time.


Speaker 2 32:14

And he just thought that was odd. So he coincidentally, Otto had spent something like a decade as a weapons specialist in the Marines. Okay. So he went down to the funeral home. Took photographs. Took some photographs and measurements of the wounds.


Speaker 2 32:31

Okay. Just the habit, because no one knows.


Speaker 3 32:35

Just all right here. We are we have American citizen and


Speaker 2 32:41

So, Larry goes home, devastated, everyone is, obviously, you know, this is a tragedy. She has two kids, she’s got a loving family, you know.


Speaker 3 32:50

Also, side note, he had also offered to reach out on Larry’s behalf to his children. Otto. Right. Yeah. And this was weird. He told Otto not to do that. It wasn’t necessary because they were his children from a previous marriage.


Speaker 3 33:10

I didn’t see that. Yes. Yes. I’ve heard that from her, not her children, not her children, but they are. They are her children. Yeah. I was going to say, but that’s what he said. Weird. Very weird. OK, I didn’t know that.


Speaker 3 33:22



Speaker 1 33:23

I know not to sell tell them that their mother died. Mm -hmm


Speaker 3 33:28

He’s just a stepdad. No, okay. I’ve confused the situation confused me. Essentially. What happened was While he was having a conversation with the consular about His deceased wife and he had offered to reach out on Larry’s behalf to tell their children and Larry Refused and he told him no, you don’t need to reach out to them They’re my kids from a different relationship from a previous marriage.


Speaker 3 33:57

So he just lie lie also, by the way


Speaker 2 34:01

Really, even if they’re from a previous marriage, that’s still a weird thing to say. Hello, thank you, thank you. None of that makes sense. So he goes home, you know, she’s cremated, he goes home and he lets, obviously there’s a life insurance policy, so he lets the life insurance.


Speaker 2 34:16

I think nine of them. No, but it’s true that there’s nine. Nine life insurance policies at seven different life insurance companies. Begging the question, why’d you double up twice? But you know, right, I don’t know why you do that.


Speaker 2 34:28

Innocent mistake, not an innocent mistake. Once you get to six or seven, who can keep track? Right, so he’s got $5 million of life insurance policies that he notifies. They all do their due diligence and all seven companies with nine policies conclude that this was in fact a terrible tragedy in an accident and pay out the money.


Speaker 2 34:48

Almost $5 million.


Speaker 1 34:49

$5 million and he tells his kids when he gets back to the States. Well, he has the interesting where’s mom what he they still don’t know They learn from the past


Speaker 3 34:57

They were freaking out because they learned from the what? No, you know what I have to say


Speaker 2 35:09

She’s not still running around looking for a leopard.


Speaker 3 35:12

Yeah, right. Actually, the children were trying to reach, and I think they started to become alarmed because they couldn’t reach their mother, and they couldn’t contact her, and they couldn’t…


Speaker 1 35:23

these kids again? They’re grown.


Speaker 3 35:27

The daughter is a dentist like her father and was working in that practice. Larry had reached out to his son when he was getting ready to fly back to, I think he was on a layover in Johannesburg and he reached out to his son and asked his, and told his son about his mother’s passing and asked his son to reach out to his sister, the daughter.


Speaker 3 35:50

So much for being there to hug them, but. I’ve got bad news.


Speaker 1 35:54

We didn’t get the leopard. Also mom’s dead.


Speaker 3 35:59

Jesus. All right. So Bianca had it.


Speaker 2 36:04

Big circle of friends. She was actually really well liked, you know, one of her friends was devastated about the accident and When Larry says you know tells her that Bianca was cremated, you know overseas All of her alarm bells go off because Bianca was was Catholic There was no way that Bianca would have wanted to be cremated and Larry never has a big Catholic funeral for her at home So it’s very strange to set soft alarm bells for the friend, right?


Speaker 2 36:32

Why wouldn’t he have flown the body home and had a proper wake and a Catholic mass and all of that, right? So she contacts the friend contacts the FBI and says you need to know My friend Bianca would not have wanted to be cremated.


Speaker 2 36:45

So that’s suspicious. You should also know that Larry Was having a very obvious affair with his dental dental hygienist I can’t make this up. But Larry was having an affair with his dental hygienist named Laurie Laurie Laurie Miller Laurie and that he must have killed his wife To be with Laurie and get the money This opens up a whole Pandora’s box of questions and investigation by the FBI


Speaker 3 37:18

which I gotta say I find fascinating. I’m fascinated that somebody just called the FBI and said, take a look at this, and the FBI was like, okay.


Speaker 2 37:28

In a way, it’s like this phone call from her to the FBI had it’s like the checklist of things the FBI would want as an affair, convenient murder overseas. The nine insurance policies is a red flag. That is a red flag.


Speaker 2 37:44

And the fact that it’s, you know, now it’s an international issue and the insurance companies are all in different states. So it’s a multi state. They might be they might be animal lovers. They might be animal lovers.


Speaker 2 37:54

That’s a good point. Take this fucking guy down. Let’s do it. I mean, do it. Oh, man, it’s true. They might be, you know, maybe you get the right the right vegan FBI guy. I don’t right say, you know, the thing.


Speaker 3 38:06

that really struck me was how


Speaker 1 38:09

Ron the Rhino, Thomas, and Bill Hippo Jones were like, grr!


Speaker 3 38:14

anyway the thing that really struck me was just how not a nice guy he was he was just not a nice guy like


Speaker 1 38:28

the bloodthirsty dentist wife killing dentist is not a nice guy that is well


Speaker 3 38:34

meaning that there were just so many things that like, if I knew somebody like that would just make me bristle.


Speaker 2 38:41

I mean he’s the head of the safari club in 2009. I mean there’s tons of you


Speaker 3 38:46

videos of him just pontificating and just he’s like a


Speaker 1 38:52

I’m not defecating about what anything. Oh, I know it all like


Speaker 3 38:57

When he’s trying to, when he’s running to be president of that… Safari class. And the commercials for the dental practice.


Speaker 2 39:06

It’s one of these dental practices where their selling point is they use heavy sedation, right? Right, so you don’t feel a thing. However, he’s also been accused of fraud with the dental practice where apparently because he has people under heavy sedation, he can do things like leave fillings open that will then require more stuff like root canals.


Speaker 2 39:29

So he’s been accused of stuff like that with the dental practice. Yeah, since 2011. 11. Yeah, and in 2011, the Safari Club actually stripped him of his presidency before any of this happened for all kinds of abuse of power and all kinds of stuff.


Speaker 2 39:47

So he actually sued them for defamation and breach of contract.


Speaker 1 39:52

They kicked him out of the safari for dental. No, they kicked him out for


Speaker 2 39:56

Fari Club issues and took away his presidency and stripped him of all of his titles and basically erased him from the club and he sued them and the only thing that he got out of the lawsuit was that he was able to keep his Weatherby award for killing a huge number of animals in multiple places.


Speaker 2 40:13

So, you know. Well, he was… What’s important? I mean, also…


Speaker 3 40:16

So, they have, believe it or not, a whole ethical component to that role as well. And word was being circulated that he was having an affair, so his wife was also forced to testify. And… Oh, so she knew about the affair?


Speaker 3 40:32

Well, that’s what they said.


Speaker 2 40:34

I mean well she he was traveling with


Speaker 3 40:36

Laurie a lot I know but she claims that she didn’t know well she testified she didn’t know the wife said she did


Speaker 2 40:45

seems like it seems like she would have and in fact Larry and someone else said that she did know I mean he was pretty open about it he was traveling with the dental hygienist right well


Speaker 3 40:56

Well, it’s not uncommon for everybody else to know but the wife.


Speaker 1 40:59

Why are you looking at me? We’re all looking at you. I don’t know what’s happening right now.


Speaker 7 41:03

Hi, I’m Matt Harris. Seton Tucker and I post the podcast Impact of Influence, which for two years covered in depth, Elick Murdock, who was eventually convicted in 2023 of murdering his wife, Maggie, and son Paul.


Speaker 7 41:16

That story continues to evolve, and we will cover that. Plus, we will tell you stories of other true crime events that have happened in the South. Please join us on Impact of Influence. And give us a follow on the Impact of Influence Facebook page.


Speaker 2 41:33

The other thing he did that was certainly I would put the heading of sketchy was he accused of having shot off part of his own thumb on Safari to collect disability money. Did that, was that ever proven or?


Speaker 3 41:47

Or this was another strange thing because he had went off to allegedly go fishing and then said that a crocodile in the scurry of trying to reel in a fish, he was assaulted by a crocodile and bit off the tip of his thumb.


Speaker 3 42:06

And he had at this point taken out private insurances for disability. How convenient. And he took it further by having it, basically he ended up getting a 3 .5 settlement. 3 .5 million. Right, 3 .5 million dollar settlement and would be paid like $30 ,000 a month for the next 10 years.


Speaker 3 42:32

He stopped working as a dentist.


Speaker 1 42:36

you took a very specific crocodile policy just like with the hunting you but that’s the thing though sir this is an alligator


Speaker 3 42:47

But the thing, the thing was, was that because it was in a foreign country, it was also in Zambia. The crocodile? Yeah, same place. And just the cost or whatever, you know, having somebody go there to investigate and do all of that.


Speaker 3 43:03

They just… They let it slide. Well they ended up just settling it by just paying it out. Gotcha. So what a crock. But friends, but there was a lot of suspicion surrounding that. Like friends were like, I don’t know if that is how that really went down.


Speaker 3 43:21

I mean the crocodile. Right. And the guides that were there had even noted that he didn’t look as disheveled as you would expect one to look had you been wrestling with a crocodile and having your tip of your thumb bit off and all things considering he seemed pretty calm.


Speaker 1 43:43

Well, if you think that story is bullshit, wait till you hear the next one.


Speaker 2 43:48

I thought that was a crock. So the FBI gets involved. They pretty quickly find their way to Otto, the former Marine who took the photos. Because they go there, they say who did what, who investigated what.


Speaker 2 44:01

Obviously, word gets out. It’s the US Embassy. They’re talking to him. He shows them the photos, and the photos are consistent with her having been shot from 2 and 1 half to 3 feet away. They’re not photos of someone who like there’s no way she could have with her as a woman.


Speaker 2 44:16

Was it in a rifle?


Speaker 1 44:17

Or is it a handgun? It was a rifle.


Speaker 3 44:20

It was the shotgun, it was the Browning.


Speaker 1 44:23

It’s hard to shoot yourself in the chest with a shotgun.


Speaker 2 44:26

They actually mocked up like a dummy with her size and right could she’ve even held a rifle three feet for their shotgun from right? the FBI


Speaker 3 44:34

also conducted a series of tests using test subjects where they had tried to simulate this. You just brought people in and shot them?


Speaker 4 44:44



Speaker 1 44:45

Fucking Zambia, man, don’t kill anything.


Speaker 3 44:47

Essentially, I mean, not necessarily the gun going off, but the positioning and seeing if that was even possible.


Speaker 2 44:57

The one thing here that that’s interesting though is he he was actually very you know He was making all this money every month from the insurance policy from the thumb thing His net worth was somewhere between five and ten million dollars at the time He had a two million dollar prenup with Bianca So if they ever got divorced you get two million dollars, but the guy had money but theoretically had money, right?


Speaker 2 45:16

We don’t know but this is what we’re hearing right? so the money motive for the life insurance is His attorneys were like it’s a little bit flimsy because he has money he has money coming in like why would he it’s not the usual Yeah, it’s not like you don’t have money and you’re gonna go do this horrible thing to get money like right And so then the theory was oh he was doing this just so he could be with Laurie


Speaker 3 45:41

To be fair, she was more than a hygienist. Well, she was a dentist too. No, she was not a dentist. She was a hygienist. That’s how she started. But then she was managing the whole practice.


Speaker 2 45:52

She was juggling a lot of balls


Speaker 3 45:55

That’s right. That’s right. That’s correct. Thank you. She was but I’m pumped


Speaker 2 46:00

Hey, so she was managing the practice But the point is even if it’s like, oh he wanted to leave his wife and he didn’t want to pay out the two million dollars It still feels odd. It’s like just get the divorce and make a settlement agreement with your wife Then there was so that he was not gonna do that She wasn’t gonna do that and then she she also people were saying she would never do that because she was Catholic So she would never know well that but also that she would never agree a divorce Oh, I see.


Speaker 2 46:25

Nobody around them has ever said like that. They were I mean if there was an affair happening But like generally people said they seem like they were a couple with ups and downs There wasn’t a sense of imminent like someone’s gonna do something crazy other than killing


Speaker 3 46:37

animals. Apparently Laurie did give him an ultimatum where she basically said look get rid of Bianca or I’m out of here.


Speaker 2 46:48

Yeah, but I think she meant divorce.


Speaker 3 46:50

I’m not saying I’m just saying


Speaker 2 46:54

Mean I know that I know that in the criminal trial they made that into like I think you read that a little different She said it honey and Laurie by the way Laurie’s in prison for 17 years Yeah, so for for being accessory after the fact for obstruction of justice and so that’s a leap ahead Okay.


Speaker 2 47:10

Well, yeah, hang on


Speaker 1 47:11

We’re not there yet. I’m sorry. Sorry So they’ve gone to Zambia they’ve re -examined these pictures of wounds they’re like this is not consistent with somebody shooting themself She must have been shot by somebody else.


Speaker 1 47:24

It was probably the guy who lied and said he was in the shower who wasn’t Mm -hmm, and they were the only two in the house. So now they’re like, okay, it looks like Larry shot Is that where they’re at?


Speaker 1 47:35

That’s where they’re at and they


Speaker 2 47:37

Regardless of the motive. Yeah, that’s where they’re at. They’re like, there wasn’t anyone else in the room. And another thing just to say on this is, that’s their theory, but it’s also, remember that the safari lodge was pretty busy.


Speaker 2 47:49

It was five a .m., people were awake, people are coming in and out of the cabin. So if you’re gonna shoot someone else in one of these cabins at that hour with people coming in and out, you gotta like really find a window because there’s a lot of activity, right?


Speaker 2 48:04

So that’s a little bit odd, but they decide he was the only person there. These wounds are consistent with someone else shooting her, therefore he shot her.


Speaker 1 48:12

just gone on safari and shot her while they were hunting.


Speaker 3 48:15

This investigation took a number of years too, because this was in 2016 when this had occurred. He wouldn’t get arrested until December. 2021. Right, December was 2021. After Bianco’s funeral, that lorry woman would move in to the house.


Speaker 1 48:36

the kids were thrilled.


Speaker 3 48:39

They were not. But she moved in. They even got a condo in Mexico. And they would go back and forth there. I don’t think she was very comfortable in the house, so he paid $3 million to build her a love nest, not far, so that they can move in there, I believe.


Speaker 2 49:00

so then they have the trial they bring in a guy so they find they find this bartender named brian lovelace bishop bishop wait what bishop brian lovelace brian lovelace right brian


Speaker 4 49:17



Speaker 1 49:18



Speaker 2 49:19

Don’t forget to like and subscribe!


Speaker 3 49:20

back they find there was a restaurant that they would frequent called Bishop’s They would go to this restaurant and the bar steak 44 was like a hangout who would go there Laurie Oh, I see so they


Speaker 1 49:36

would hang out and go to this place and a bartender there named Brian Lovelace.


Speaker 3 49:40

have become friendly with.


Speaker 2 49:41

And said that it’s a very loud place, you can’t hear anything, except there happened to be a break in the music and a lull in the conversation. I killed her! And he heard her, and he’d seen them arguing, and he hears Larry say to Laurie, I killed my fucking wife for you.


Speaker 1 49:57

What an unfortunate break in the music.


Speaker 2 50:00

So at trial, they bring Brian in, and it testifies, and Larry, by the way, does take the stand in his own defense, and one question about this says, it was very loud, and what Brian didn’t hear was the part where I said, and now they’re saying, I’ve killed my fucking life for you, right?


Speaker 1 50:20

They didn’t hear the part where I said, JK!


Speaker 3 50:22

Well, he his defense was what he actually said was the FBI thinks I killed my fucking wife for you, right? Yeah


Speaker 2 50:33

Well. Which she could have been. She could have been saying for sure. Right.


Speaker 3 50:36

I mean, you got to admit that’s a nice save it is really I mean, that’s a good right. It’s a good one It’s a good say like it’s a good, you know, like like right when I read that I was like, ah, yeah Yeah, well, you know


Speaker 1 50:49

Don’t become a dentist if you’re dumb.


Speaker 2 50:52

if they catch you on tape saying, would you like to buy this cocaine? You say, wouldn’t it be crazy if I were to say something like? Exactly.


Speaker 3 50:59

And in fact him and Laurie were tried together, which is weird Don’t think totally fair to her definitely not really to her. I don’t know that I’m more heaping or feels


Speaker 1 51:10

Sorry does she kill animals don’t know I don’t think I don’t think she’s okay, then it’s not fair


Speaker 3 51:17

Fair enough. But they did go on trial together and their trial would begin on July 2022. So not even… What did she do?


Speaker 1 51:28

What did she do? She’s having an affair with a married guy, and he kills his wife.


Speaker 3 51:33

They got her on to answer your question Laurie was indicted for accessory after the fact Obstruction of justice and five counts of perjury


Speaker 1 51:45

Basically, they’re saying she knew, he didn’t go to the police, she didn’t say, and then she lied on the stand about it. Right, lied to the grand jury. Which we don’t know. We don’t know whether she knew or didn’t know.


Speaker 1 51:54

Why was she on the stand? I mean, just as a witness. She wasn’t.


Speaker 3 51:58

Stance she didn’t she didn’t take the surgery. I don’t know where the perjury what grand jury really is when they just question you Okay, so they’re saying that’s a separate She was a lion But on bump all right


Speaker 2 52:13

I would have to say it. Oddly enough, his attorney.


Speaker 3 52:17

Oh, wow, that’s right This name lion no tourney is jerry knows the attorney


Speaker 2 52:24

I his attorney is a guy that I knew from debating in high school Oh, yeah I saw I kept seeing the name David Marcus and I was like I knew David Marcus and then I saw the picture and I Was like that’s hilarious


Speaker 1 52:38

That’s cool. Is it, though? Wait, this is the attorney for Larry? Yes. Oh, he’s a defense guy. You know a lot of shady defense guys.


Speaker 2 52:45

Everybody needs a good defense lawyer, you know a lot a lot everybody hopefully well Everybody who’s accused of a crime right should get the best possible defense lawyer, right? And David is a good defense lawyer, right, but not good enough Well, it’s an interesting case because the insurance money it turns out went into a trust for the kids Okay, so he didn’t even take the money right for himself Is that really yeah?


Speaker 2 53:10

Well, that’s what they said at trial


Speaker 3 53:12

I don’t know if I believe that. Okay. Like, I’m not going to defend it.


Speaker 1 53:17

Are you saying you don’t believe Jerry? That’s what I read. I’m just saying that


Speaker 3 53:22

If that’s what the attorneys in his defense, I don’t know.


Speaker 1 53:26

like it can’t possibly be a motive, he didn’t even take it.


Speaker 3 53:28

Well, that’s what their defense was, was that it wasn’t monetarily motivated because, you know, his practice was thriving and, right, but he had.


Speaker 1 53:38

You know. Nine policies. Didn’t you say nine or seven or whatever? Yeah, he had a lot of policies.


Speaker 2 53:43

That’s a red flag. I think no seems like a lot of policies. Yeah, but he was found guilty guilty David David did the best he could


Speaker 3 53:51

No, he was found guilty and sentenced for life in prison. He will serve a concurrent sentence of 20 years. He will serve a concurrent sentence of 20 years for filing fraudulent life insurance claims and he was ordered to pay more than almost $5 million in restitution and a fine of $2 million.


Speaker 1 54:17

to keep his award oh yeah I guess he does the weather be award yeah for huge animal killings huge numbers you know huge animal killings all right so he’s in jail now he’s in jail and she’s in jail


Speaker 2 54:29

too? She is for 17 years. Wow. Um, they just tried this year for a retrial, which was denied. Okay. There’s new evidence, but you know, it’s an interesting case because it happened overseas. There was not a proper investigation by the US authorities.


Speaker 2 54:46

All what they really had were the photos and measurements taken by auto of the body before it was cremated.


Speaker 1 54:52

Why were they obvious to them when they came back, when the FBI came there, and not obvious at the time? Why was what obvious? The wounds that like, oh, this is, this couldn’t possibly have been done by somebody themselves.


Speaker 1 55:02

I don’t know.


Speaker 2 55:03

that Otto was thinking of in those terms because he was as a matter of just sort of data collection just compelled to do that right when people collect baseball but I don’t know I you know I didn’t look into whether or not Otto tried to raise a red flag at all I don’t know but he was just suspicious yeah like no


Speaker 3 55:21

Something but what’s the authorities?


Speaker 2 55:23

were like no it was an accident and the insurance companies paid out it was like okay.


Speaker 1 55:29

Did he never pay off with that guide saying like, he said he was wearing a towel, but he was fully dressed. Yeah, he testified. He did.


Speaker 3 55:34

Yeah, they brought the people that were with him, this guy, the ex -wife of the Game Scout.


Speaker 2 55:41



Speaker 1 55:42

Anybody who saw or heard anything. On the show 3 -2 -1 Contact, the Bloodhound gang once solved a crime because somebody said they were in the shower, but that the mirror was not foggy. So, really. I was wondering if that was gonna come into play.


Speaker 1 55:56

I was gonna get really excited.


Speaker 2 55:58

So this is your meat and potatoes top shelf slacation. If we’re to believe the findings of the trial, then it is someone who literally tried to murder someone overseas and make it look like an accident.


Speaker 3 56:12

Trump supporter. I was not going to bring that up. I have to bring that up. That’s shocking.


Speaker 1 56:19

Trump kids love killing animals all these people that love killing animals I assume are of the same sort of mindset


Speaker 3 56:25

But did you know that Larry considered running for Congress?


Speaker 2 56:30

Did you know that Larry petitioned the Trump administration to be a member of the Cabinet?


Speaker 3 56:35

Yes for fish and wildlife. Yeah that cabinet


Speaker 2 56:39

begging them to be young.


Speaker 1 56:41

him be part of Fish and Wildlife so we can make less of them.


Speaker 2 56:44

in the cabinet right like yeah we can make less of them because that’s what they’re looking for dr. hunters right although the Trump administration might have found him perfectly suitable


Speaker 1 56:53

I’m sure they would have made it legal to like bring in all those like animal parts and stuff and Endangered species would be no more. Yeah, they would just rewrite everything Did he just take an opportunity to kill her you think or like was this planned out?


Speaker 1 57:06

But look he was nice enough to do it on the day 10. Let her have the full safari Well, I find a I mean her money’s worth


Speaker 2 57:13

I know it seems very cut and dried, but there’s parts of the story that seem weird to me. First of all, it seems so extreme for him to kill her. That’s the most extreme thing you can do to another person, right?


Speaker 2 57:23

It’s just like…


Speaker 3 57:24

Do you think that maybe it was just a tragic accident?


Speaker 2 57:27

No, like, cause also doing it then is the stupidest time to do it, like if you’re planning to kill someone.


Speaker 3 57:33

I don’t know. I gotta say that that’s what he counted on. I’ll be honest You know, it’s interesting because just the stuff that I was reading about him that just kind of gave me that He’s icky. He’s not right


Speaker 2 57:45

But that doesn’t I know that’s true


Speaker 3 57:49

That’s true, but it does say something about your character. It does say something about who you are to your core. If you are able to rationalize shooting off your thumb to get money, swindling your patience, I mean, that says something.


Speaker 3 58:06

It’s all hearsay. It’s all hearsay, but even so, he had to admit that he had even lied during that defamation. He had to admit that he was having an affair. you


Speaker 2 58:19

But so here’s the thing that just, I think is so odd is like you’ve got 10 days when you’re out hunting, right? So every morning you’re loading your guns with, with ammo, then you’re out for hours with guns in places where something bad could happen.


Speaker 2 58:33

Why would you choose?


Speaker 3 58:36

I gotta make it look like, oh, it’s an accident. Oh my God. I mean, you gotta do that right out the gate.


Speaker 2 58:43

He would have to sell it as suicide because the gun had been emptied and they were headed home So the only way to sell it is to say she put a bullet in the gun and shot herself. Well, actually


Speaker 1 58:54

He wanted to make it seem like an accident and then the guy said I saw the gun was empty and maybe he was like Oh, then it must have been a suicide. Maybe he was a switch


Speaker 2 59:01

Yeah, maybe but it’s like if you think about like the size of that gun and her like if he thought it through I’m saying like if he really was planning and thought it through That is in some ways the worst scenario like it doesn’t


Speaker 3 59:16

Take a guy like him, doesn’t really have much regard for what other people think. He just thinks he’s gonna just do it and get away. Yeah, it’s just like I said it, so that’s what it is. I mean, there’s a certain personality that thinks like, I get my way, I do what I want, I say what I say, and everybody’s just supposed to fall in line.


Speaker 3 59:34

I mean, he doesn’t really give a shit. It’s like, I said this, so it is. And why do we do it on day one? Because in his mind, it wouldn’t work if he did it on day one.


Speaker 1 59:44

So there is thinking, he is smart in the sense of like evil genius, like, or evil…


Speaker 2 59:49

Just didn’t think through the details of like size of gun versus size of person and stuff like that like gun person. I


Speaker 1 59:55

I mean, I would be like, you can’t shoot yourself like this. He said it was an accident that she accidentally shot herself. Well, he started with Susan.


Speaker 2 01:00:02

side. He did start with this. He immediately started with, right? Because he said, by the way, he said she killed herself. Oh, right. He killed herself, right. Then he changed it to, well, maybe it was just an accident.


Speaker 3 01:00:09

I mean, I think he went in there just figuring, I’m just going to throw all these theories until something kind of sticks. I’m going to be just as bewildered and as, oh my God, is…


Speaker 1 01:00:20

She was hunting and he wasn’t right so all day long. He’s just thinking like am I gonna do this probably and that’s like probably Exactly what came up with thinking and the last day. I’ll just shoot her like he ran out of ideas.


Speaker 1 01:00:32

I don’t know


Speaker 3 01:00:35

I mean, do you think that there’s a remote possibility that he could be not guilty?


Speaker 2 01:00:40

that wouldn’t be consistent with the gunshot wounds if there was no one else in that place and those wounds are measurements are correct then she was shot by


Speaker 1 01:00:50

He should have found that crocodile and brought it to the cabin and let the crocodile attack her. That’s not funny


Speaker 3 01:00:57

That’s not funny. That’s not funny.


Speaker 1 01:01:01

Yeah, I mean it because.


Speaker 2 01:01:02

came back from my other side. Well, look, it’s not that I think he’s not guilty. I just think there’s a sense that it’s not super cut and dry.


Speaker 3 01:01:10

The jurors initially were kind of on the fence. It wasn’t until he testified on his own behalf.


Speaker 1 01:01:19

So that plays into what you were saying, Kim, where you’re like, he thinks he’s so smart and he thinks he’s so going to win everybody over, and like, I know everything. So maybe that, yeah.


Speaker 3 01:01:28

There’s a measure of arrogance. People like that are like, I could talk my way out of anything.


Speaker 2 01:01:33

I feel like David probably advised him not to testify. I… I wouldn’t.


Speaker 3 01:01:37

I just lawyer and I’m not a lawyer. Don’t get any lawyer worth his will tell you don’t don’t do


Speaker 2 01:01:46

Especially this guy, because if you watch his, he probably should have queued up one of his commercials just so you could see, but he’s not a guy who’s gonna go on the stand and convince anyone that he’s a good guy.


Speaker 1 01:01:57

So wait, what was he actually, you know, what was he actually charged with?


Speaker 3 01:02:01

Larry was charged with murder and for filing fraudulent life insurance claims. Gotcha. The first degree murder? You know, I read somewhere that even the death penalty, but I guess that was negotiated out because that’s what a good attorney will do is get that off the table.


Speaker 3 01:02:17

Yeah, it didn’t say first degree or second degree, but he was charged and convicted of murder and for filing fraudulent life insurance claims. I mean, the thing that was really said, you know, of course, they tape record all these conversations and there was a lot of conversations between him and Laurie and she was actually not supposed to be talking to him, but was and, you know, got sent to jail for it.


Speaker 3 01:02:42

It was part of her deal was that she wouldn’t communicate with him. But there was this conversation, I think when he was convicted and the jury had found Larry guilty and he’s on the phone and his daughter is just bereft.


Speaker 3 01:02:55

I mean, she is weeping. And at one point, this just broke my heart. At one point, she asks her father, why did you love Laurie more than you love me? Mom. And Julian, do you imagine that was his answer and his was I didn’t.


Speaker 3 01:03:18

I just needed a friend to have sex with.


Speaker 1 01:03:22

Great words to live by. That’s it. What I said was, they think I said that I just needed it.


Speaker 3 01:03:31

Yeah, no, it was it was and just hearing her, you know, just really just it broke my heart because it’s it’s and his children They stand by him. They believe in his innocence They were present or his case and it was really sad The other thing that was interesting was he was it seemed more concerned with the fact that these calls are recorded not that his daughter is devastated and crying and upset that now she has lost her father and The prison which is a is basically what she was saying She was saying I didn’t even get to hug you and this douchebag is like I’m I’m sorry, honey That’s not you know, you got to be careful what you say.


Speaker 3 01:04:15

These this is recorded These calls are recorded a pretty good look


Speaker 2 01:04:20

There you go.


Speaker 1 01:04:21

Hey, that’s a good impression, honey. I usually don’t do impressions, though.


Speaker 2 01:04:25

so that is the what is the takeaway yeah what’s the takeaway on this one


Speaker 1 01:04:30

I’m gonna go with anyone who’s heartless enough to kill these beautiful animals It’s heartless enough to do these extreme things while the wife, you know was the victim He was also a bloodthirsty animal killer.


Speaker 1 01:04:46

It’s hard for you to sympathize. It’s hard for me to sympathize, but let’s see I don’t know if that’s really take away. That’s just my


Speaker 2 01:04:53

Well, I think anger. It is anger. No, you’re not you’re not going to have takeaway on this one because you want them all taken away. Yeah. No matter how difficult and horrible and totally chaotic you think it’s going to be to divorce somebody who doesn’t want to leave you or expensive or whatever, no matter how much trouble you think that’s going to cause for everyone.


Speaker 2 01:05:12

Killing them is worse. Killing them is just so much worse. Like don’t do it. Like just like if you’re in a relationship, you’re thinking the way out is to kill someone, divorce them. I was like, well.


Speaker 3 01:05:23

He didn’t want to share his money with her. And she wasn’t gonna be easy to divorce in the sense that allegedly. She didn’t want to get divorced.


Speaker 2 01:05:32

Yeah, she was Catholic, but it doesn’t matter. I don’t know why that even is gonna cost you millions of dollars leave her the guys Got tons of money if he doesn’t have tons of money, then he can’t give her tons of money You could just like just do the chess moves three three steps two steps past The murder is a better than 50% chance you’re gonna get caught Yeah, and you’re gonna have less no freedom no money have destroyed lives killed somebody root like you know


Speaker 1 01:05:58

a limb and say murder is never the best option ever ever yeah that’s a public service announcement there you just don’t get enough but


Speaker 2 01:06:06

do enough of them that we keep having a podcast. Right.


Speaker 3 01:06:08

What really stayed with me was really just how easy it was for him to do all these things, have this affair, kill his wife, not really consider the pain that he would be causing. Yeah, that’s what I’m saying.


Speaker 3 01:06:28

I mean, what type of person? If you kill animals,


Speaker 1 01:06:32

animals indiscriminately like that, then you are missing a gene of sorts, I think.


Speaker 3 01:06:40

I gotta say, it is your love of animals really definitely endeared you to me. I gotta say, just as an aside. And that makes me curious too, because I don’t understand. I can’t, it’s not an experience I can relate to.


Speaker 3 01:06:57

I can’t relate to somebody that can go out and just kill, I can’t relate to that.


Speaker 2 01:07:04

anybody who’s ever done that personally. The only people I’m aware of who do it and are proud of it are 100% agents of chaos, right? It’s politicians we know of or people in the entertainment industry.


Speaker 2 01:07:18

And they’re all people who are not particularly concerned with their effects on other people. That it’s about power and they’re agents of chaos. The things personality disorders are made of. Yeah, and I don’t know, like I said, I don’t know anyone personally who goes out and does these hunting safaris, but the people I’m aware of are not.


Speaker 2 01:07:34

The people that I-


Speaker 3 01:07:35

That’s what intrigues me. That is why I’m so curious and interested in these kinds of crimes, because what is that? What is that? A person can just say, I’m gonna go hunt and I’m gonna go and I’m gonna spend all this money.


Speaker 3 01:07:52

The idea that you even have this kind of money, that you can use that money to destroy an animal who’s just living their life.


Speaker 1 01:08:02

the world like it’s not even enough to just go hunt a deer or you know do your regular hunting no I’ve got to go spend a fortune travel around the world put myself up go to this special game reserve pay these guides and shoot something that most people would love to see


Speaker 3 01:08:20

You’re not even really hunting if you’ve got a guy next to you, like a hunting sharper. Like, ew.


Speaker 1 01:08:28

So that takes a certain kind of fucked up person. It’s so cheesy, it’s so corny, it’s like…


Speaker 2 01:08:33

Like, they’re taking you to where the animal is, they tell you where to point your gun. In some cases, they actually hold the gun for you if you can’t handle it. It’s so cheesy. And the pictures of these assholes posing with this stuff.


Speaker 2 01:08:41

And infect the house.


Speaker 3 01:08:42

The love nest that he was building with his new girlfriend. Oh, it was just loaded with safari animals? Well, there’s a special floor that was gonna hold like all his game, his trophies. But I’m curious, what makes that kind of person?


Speaker 3 01:08:58

My takeaway is just the further quest of understanding and making sense of the senseless.


Speaker 2 01:09:05

I think it’s people who are really sad and insecure, who have bought into the idea. And I think they’ve bought into the idea that to be important, you have to be powerful. They feel small. And so the way they try and make themselves look powerful is by taking charge of other people’s lives, making laws that affect other people, doing things for power, killing animals, being done on guided trips.


Speaker 2 01:09:29

I think they’re filling a giant hole in themselves. They feel they’re too small. And so they’re just sad, lowly, insecure, pathetic people. And that is what they’re doing.


Speaker 3 01:09:41

They see themselves that way, though. Of course not. They don’t.


Speaker 2 01:09:44

if they stop for a second and like sit down and like sit still and think about what’s driving them, they would have some reckoning to do in their personalities and they might be able to become more beneficial members of society.


Speaker 2 01:09:58

But that’s asking a lot. I mean, for someone who’s really that insecure and that damaged, it’s tough to have introspection.


Speaker 1 01:10:05

But what do serial killers do when they kill animals? Mm -hmm, you know, it’s like one of the signs of being a serial killer if like they were growing up and they’re killing animals So when you’re an adult and you’re paying a lot of money to kill


Speaker 3 01:10:17

animals. Like a safe sort of way to get off. Yeah, exactly.


Speaker 1 01:10:22

anyway that’s today’s case look into who your dentist is


Speaker 3 01:10:32

background check yeah I think it’s important to really goodbye honey goodbye honey goodbye no I just I think we could all benefit from really thinking about how our actions impact those we claim to love and care about right exactly


Speaker 1 01:10:50

All right, shut up. All right. We gotta go. Thanks for slicating with us


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