Ep. 8 Ocean City, Maryland Murders (Part Two)

The shocking finish to our story about a couple from Virginia who just wanted to enjoy a weekend getaway in Ocean City, Maryland. On a drunk bus they befriend another couple who invite them to go hot tubbing back in their hotel room. What could go wrong? Get ready for the conclusion to this shocking story that will leave you gobsmacked!
Sifrit Murders Martha Crutchly Joshua Ford Ocean City Marylan

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our transcript

Transcript:

Speaker 1 00:11

Welcome back to Slaycation, exciting part two of the Ocean City. Disappearance. Disappearance for now. Probably leading to murder later because it’s a show about murder. But this is definitely part two.

 

Speaker 1 00:28

We left we left the last one at a cliffhanger. If you haven’t heard part one, don’t listen to this episode yet. Go back, listen to part one and then come back here and we’ll catch you up with part two.

 

Speaker 1 00:40

You guys want to reset the scene for us?

 

Speaker 2 00:43

Yeah, so far what we know is that a couple from Fairfax, Virginia, Josh and Jeannie have come to Ocean City, Maryland for a weekend in 2002. They’ve rented a condo. They’re here to have a nice time, go to the beach, have some fun on the the drunk bus, which takes people up and down the strip to different bars so they don’t have to drive.

 

Speaker 2 01:04

They met a couple who didn’t have exact change for the bus. A couple named BJ and Erica, they gave them exact change and BJ and Erica returned the favor by taking them for drinks at Secrets. So at Secrets, Josh and Jeannie learn that BJ is proud of Erica for getting in the club with her .357 Magnum, a giant gun.

 

Speaker 2 01:27

They also learned that BJ has a gun. Both BJ and Josh are ex -military, so guns are not a red flag. They’re kind of like, yeah, you know, guns are around. That’s cool. So Secrets closed. The bar closed.

 

Speaker 2 01:42

It got late, and BJ and Erica invited Josh and Jeannie back to the condo they had rented for the weekend to keep the party going. Cut to the weekend’s end. It’s Tuesday, Wednesday. Now Jeannie is known.

 

Speaker 2 01:55

She is a 52 -year -old, like very punctual, doesn’t miss meetings. She’s a supervisor at an insurance company. And Kim, what happened? She had a

 

Speaker 3 02:03

meeting that she missed not only did she miss it she didn’t show up and this was for this Virgo insurance executive a red flag to her colleagues and they immediately called authorities to have this investigated and especially when they discovered that Joshua too had not shown up for work.

 

Speaker 3 02:26

My boyfriend. Right.

 

Speaker 1 02:29

Okay, so you have two missing people after a weekend and Memorial Day weekend of fun at Ocean City with this crazy couple gun toting drunk apparently drug snorting couple

 

Speaker 2 02:42

Just to clarify, all we know is that Erica of the couple they’d met was snorting Xanax. We don’t know anything. Right.

 

Speaker 1 02:48

way to murder usually.

 

Speaker 2 02:52

If that is the case, we’re all dead. So the authorities have been alerted. The Fairfax, Virginia authorities treated as a missing persons. They put out the word, but they also notify Ocean City. Ocean City sends a detective to…

 

Speaker 2 03:09

The top detective. Yes. The top man. They sign their top man to the case.

 

Speaker 3 03:14

know if that’s true, but I’m going to say yes. Let’s just say yes.

 

Speaker 2 03:18

By the way, there’d be no reason to assign the top man to this case at this point. Right now, all we know is that two people didn’t show up for work. That’s it. Send in the third best guy. Right. It’s a missing persons, but it’s like we’re starting to like seize or something wrong.

 

Speaker 2 03:31

They go to the condo that Jeannie and Josh had rented and everything’s in order. There’s nothing out of place. In fact, there’s stuff is there. There’s a half smoked roach. There it is. The roach signal from Kim.

 

Speaker 2 03:46

I’m glad it’s not a bong. All their stuff is there. There’s no signs of a struggle.

 

Speaker 3 03:51

like they’re out and they’ll come back and you know maybe have whatever a bite to eat or come back and pack and hit the road.

 

Speaker 2 03:59

So it’s a bit of a mystery, right? The cops don’t know what to make of it. There’s no signs of struggle. There’s no distress calls from their phones. No one’s been able to reach them. So it’s just two people are missing and her car is there.

 

Speaker 2 04:11

And they can tell Jeannie’s car is still at the condo. Parking lot and it has not been moved. They know this because they check it for dust. They can tell that the car has not been moved because there’s whatever leaves or whatever on it.

 

Speaker 2 04:26

So.

 

Speaker 3 04:27

sediment, whatever. So there’s just that they have no idea what’s going on. Right. But meanwhile, Erica and BJ are living their best life. Having a great time. I’m still in Ocean City? Oh yeah, eating crap.

 

Speaker 3 04:40

Getting tattoos. Mini golfing. Oh my good tanning. Now, girl was all about the tanning.

 

Speaker 2 04:45

Super tan. So they’re having a blast, these two, right?

 

Speaker 1 04:49

Okay now now do authorities know that these four were together no no no there’s

 

Speaker 2 04:55

There’s no connection. Nobody’s connected, BJ and Erica, to our missing couple, Josh and you. So how’d you guys connect? Well, after this podcast, we need to call the Ocean City police and let them know because…

 

Speaker 2 05:07

Wait, are you…

 

Speaker 1 05:08

Secretly BJ

 

Speaker 2 05:17

These two are just going nuts. Here’s another interesting thing to mention about, so Erika, besides snorting Xanax and carrying a giant gun with her everywhere, she- And her coach purse. And her jewelry, lots of very fancy expensive jewelry.

 

Speaker 2 05:31

She is also a compulsive scrapbooker, okay? That’s right, that’s right. So she’s constantly taking pictures. Like that’s her thing, picture, picture, picture. Everywhere she goes, anything that happens, she’s taking pictures, right?

 

Speaker 2 05:44

So they’re running around Ocean City, taking pictures, having fun, drinking, and there’s tons of pictures of them having all this fun. But they’re not loc-

 

Speaker 1 05:52

right there still

 

Speaker 3 05:53

vacation no they’re still yeah they’re like I said they are living their best ocean city vacation life

 

Speaker 1 06:00

Yes. Okay. But nobody has connected them to our missing couple.

 

Speaker 2 06:03

Unless police somehow, I don’t know if they would have surveillance video that would allow them to do that, so. Well.

 

Speaker 3 06:09

There was surveillance of all of them leaving together, but I don’t even know if that in secrets Yeah, but the cops wouldn’t even know to look for that and also I can walk out the door with you, right?

 

Speaker 3 06:20

I mean, what does that say?

 

Speaker 2 06:22

But they wouldn’t even know to look at secrets necessarily. They didn’t even know they had gone there. Right. At this point, all we know is they were an ocean city. All right. So.

 

Speaker 3 06:31

What’s interesting thing about this couple to be J and Erica? Yes, is they like to do a lot of things together. And one of the things that they really like to do is commit burglaries.

 

Speaker 2 06:43

Right. I love Burley.

 

Speaker 3 06:45

Wait, what?

 

Speaker 1 06:47

That’s a new wrinkle.

 

Speaker 3 06:48

Yeah, they enjoy robbing hooters.

 

Speaker 1 06:53

and the reason because girls keep a lot of things in there no because oh you mean the restaurant

 

Speaker 2 06:58

at the restaurant. Oh! That’s right.

 

Speaker 1 07:01

pickpocketing out of who.

 

Speaker 2 07:02

Erika is obsessed with Hooters merch. She owns, or has burgled, but she has like 30 Hooters tank tops because you can’t buy those. You can’t buy them. So she’s burgled them. Right, rather than just get a job there.

 

Speaker 2 07:15

No, that would be, that’s not her style. She has Hooters key chains, Hooters bags, Hooters, like everything, all of it. She’s obsessed, obsessed with Hooters.

 

Speaker 3 07:25

and they make a point to rob Hooters pretty routinely.

 

Speaker 1 07:31

I can’t make this up. Wow.

 

Speaker 2 07:35

So I growing up growing up in Miami, there’s a Hooters near my grandparents. My grandfather loved Hooters, but nobody would go with him. I would go with him. Right. I love their chicken. They have the best chicken.

 

Speaker 2 07:45

Let’s go, Jerry, you want to go to Hooters and get some chicken? I’m like, I swear there’s better chicken. Right. But he loved Hooters. However, my grandfather never stole any merchandise from him, right?

 

Speaker 2 07:57

Nor burgled with Hooters. These people were like, that’s their thing. They like to burgle Hooters.

 

Speaker 1 08:02

Yeah. If you’re in a big group of straight men, there’s worse places to go than Hooters. It’s the kind of perfect. Because the girls will sit down with you and chat. How do you know this? Because I’ve gone to Hooters.

 

Speaker 1 08:13

The first time I went, we were in Virginia visiting friends and we went to a Hooters, and it was relatively new or at least it was new for us. And the girls sat with us and they laugh at your dumb jokes and they make you feel good.

 

Speaker 1 08:27

And then you order 500 chicken wings. It’s great. I’ve been to the Hooters in New York. It wasn’t as friendly, I will say. The New York girls, you know, they give you that New York attitude. I think I’ve only been twice.

 

Speaker 1 08:38

It never dawned on me to steal this stuff.

 

Speaker 2 08:40

No. Nor should it. I mean, it’s a really odd obsession. Not only is it an- We did run out without pa-

 

Speaker 3 08:44

not only is it kidding not only is it an odd obsession it’s an odd couples activity right I mean right like some

 

Speaker 2 08:56

Couples like to go to theater together, some enjoy throwing dinner parties.

 

Speaker 1 09:00

It’s like burgling, not just hooter burgling, or is it only hooter burgling? Primarily. Primarily hooter.

 

Speaker 2 09:06

her. Right. Because she wants the stuff. Right? She wants stuff that other people can have.

 

Speaker 1 09:11

I was gonna say couldn’t you just buy it on eBay man, but this takes the fun of burger

 

Speaker 2 09:16

out of it.

 

Speaker 3 09:18

Right. She would make money stealing Hooters paraphernalia and sell it.

 

Speaker 2 09:25

So, what does this have to do with Ocean City, Maryland disappearances? Well… They get caught burgling a hooter?

 

Speaker 1 09:31

For more information visit www .fema .gov

 

Speaker 2 09:32

KEME DING DING DING DING DING

 

Speaker 3 09:33

Oh, hey!

 

Speaker 2 09:35

So, mere days after, you know, this is later in the week.

 

Speaker 3 09:40

I think it was the 30th or the 31st. Yeah, so it was like that Friday.

 

Speaker 2 09:43

Friday or Saturday, the following weekend, after our friends have gone missing, the police receive a silent alarm from a Hooters in Ocean City, Maryland, where they arrive and apprehend a burglary in progress.

 

Speaker 2 09:56

You’ll never guess who was doing the burgling. Hitler, the snake. No, it was HIV. No, it was not. The snake. The snake. Right, this is in part one, HIV was their other snake.

 

Speaker 1 10:08

and Erica are in like they catch them orange handed because

 

Speaker 2 10:12

Yeah, and not only catch them, but they’re absolutely drunk. They’re trashed. Completely trashed. To the point where BJ actually says to the cops. We’ll put it back. We’ll put it all back and leave, man.

 

Speaker 2 10:24

We’re all good? We’ll be good, right? Well, this doesn’t work? No. Oddly doesn’t work. And she is- Spots to have. A panic attack.

 

Speaker 1 10:33

oh right i have i know exactly what to do uh -huh when you have a really bad patting what do you do you snort a whole bunch of xanax where is your

 

Speaker 2 10:40

Here’s Annex.

 

Speaker 1 10:42

in your gun

 

Speaker 2 10:44

No, where’s your Xanax?

 

Speaker 1 10:46

Where’s her genetics? Where would it be? In her purse. In her purse. Alright, I just…

 

Speaker 2 10:50

in her purse is a giant gun well oh no

 

Speaker 1 10:54

Uh -oh, there’s so much going on in his head

 

Speaker 2 10:57

Okay, but let’s stop for a second. Kim’s exploding. She has so much to say. We have to stop and give her the floor. Okay.

 

Speaker 3 11:03

So, she starts to have a panic attack, and in any world, a suspect could be having a panic attack and can say to a policeman, I’m having a panic attack and I need my medication. It’s in my purse. And have that policeman go to your purse to get you your medication.

 

Speaker 3 11:23

And what did they find, Jerry? Jerry, Jeannie, and Josh’s ID, spent shell casings? Mm -hmm.

 

Speaker 2 11:32

Yes, they found all of those things in her purse. And the Xanax. And the Xanax. Which was… Just to stop here for a second, I mean, it is really interesting, like, I don’t know if that’s a normal thing, like, if you’re being arrested for burglary and you’re like, I’m having a panic attack, can you give me drugs for my purse?

 

Speaker 3 11:49

Well, I know, again, if it were me having a panic attack and I was getting arrested, and I said, officer, I’m having a panic attack, I think I would be assaulted with the back of a gun. Because I can’t imagine anybody stopping to address my panic attack while I am an active suspect in a burglary.

 

Speaker 3 12:10

But that’s just me.

 

Speaker 1 12:12

The cops aren’t gonna let you go in your own person get it. So the idea is that the cop will go get right here you’re good

 

Speaker 2 12:18

You have you’re cuffed. Yeah, so she’s cuffed. She’s sitting there and she’s like my stuff’s in my purse I just find it very incongruous knowing what I’ve heard about most police stories that they would even entertain like okay, ma ‘am I’ll go to your purse and I’ll get your medications

 

Speaker 3 12:33

Maybe it was an opportunity to look in the purse. Well, that’s true. Maybe it was good.

 

Speaker 2 12:38

policing. Right. You’re right. Okay, let’s put it up to good policing. Right. If you’re having like a medic like a I guess panic attack is can be a medical thing, right? Because it is a medical emergency.

 

Speaker 1 12:48

freaking out, also, if you can just give them to describe medicine.

 

Speaker 3 12:51

but I digress.

 

Speaker 2 12:53

And while getting the Xanax as she’s requested, they find the identifications of our missing people are in her purse. And they know these people are missing. Like this is out there. Oh, the cops are all very aware.

 

Speaker 2 13:04

Gotcha. And it’s not a big city. The whole police force knows that we’re looking for these missing people.

 

Speaker 1 13:09

And when you say identification, you mean like a driver’s license, like just, or like a wallet? She had just their driver’s license.

 

Speaker 2 13:16

And five spent bullet casings and the reason she has these is because she had jewelry. She had Josh’s That’s when they notice she has a ring on right that around her neck that has blood on it, right?

 

Speaker 2 13:28

Now the reason she has all these things is because she’s a scrapbooker, right? She’s the scrapbook Queen so these to her these are all items. She’s keeping for a scrapbook

 

Speaker 1 13:39

Right, you know who does this to? Serial killers. Right. I mean, they keep trophies and stuff. I mean.

 

Speaker 2 13:45

Right. So now they go and they look in their car where they find, what is it, masks and zip ties, like other things that one would not normally have. Also guns. More guns.

 

Speaker 1 14:00

Morgan’s. Okay. All right. Well, this is the fun, loving couple. They got some good kinks. So now suddenly they’re tied to Jeannie and Josh. Yeah.

 

Speaker 2 14:09

Right. And the cops, they’re like, oh, they’re not thinking at this point that they’re dead. They’re assuming that they’ve been taken hostage or and that they’re.

 

Speaker 3 14:18

They’re still alive, being kept somewhere.

 

Speaker 1 14:21

blood and the spent gun casings.

 

Speaker 3 14:24

That wasn’t immediately apparent at that moment. She had a lot of their stuff in her purse, and their first inclination was, where are they?

 

Speaker 1 14:35

Right. Right now, I’m just thinking like BJ is like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Fucking scrapbooking.

 

Speaker 2 14:42

The Hooters robbing and the asking the cop for the Xanax This whole they’re all getting all the threes to getting caught are a hundred percent her

 

Speaker 1 14:53

Yeah, I love you, baby, but…

 

Speaker 3 14:55

Holy moly. It’s interesting to think that if that hadn’t happened, that they might have gotten away with it. They might have, right. They certainly pulled attention to themselves with that. Now what was interesting was BJ clammed right up and was like, yeah, I’m not speaking to you.

 

Speaker 3 15:14

So he was not answering questions and lawyered up right out the gate. And she couldn’t shut the fuck up.

 

Speaker 1 15:22

Really? That seems so off -brand for her.

 

Speaker 2 15:26

She just started saying a lot of stuff.

 

Speaker 3 15:28

Right. I mean, she just was such as one of the first things that she did was say she wanted to make a deal. OK, she was wanting to make a deal around the robbery.

 

Speaker 1 15:38

Let me keep the hooter stuff, and I’ll tell you where the body’s at.

 

Speaker 2 15:42

funny side note to that. You know there’s a court filing that I read that’s actually wild. I don’t have it in front of me right now but early on before things got out of hand she actually had her lawyer submit a document that said there are 30 Hooters items that belong to me that I did not steal so I want these back when I’m found innocent.

 

Speaker 2 16:03

You can keep the stuff I stole but these 30 specific items. This is how important the Hooter shit is. In the midst of what turns into a very serious legal situation she is obsessed with getting back her tank tops and keychains and all this other stuff.

 

Speaker 1 16:22

I gotta see a picture of her. Oh, here, I have it right here. Because she could have just saved herself a lot of trouble and just got a job there. Even if it was just for a weekend, she could have kept her uniform.

 

Speaker 1 16:30

No, these are them. They don’t look like what I’d think. All right, so her Hooter obsession has led to them getting caught by the police, brought in and she starts talking and she says among other things.

 

Speaker 1 16:45

That she wants to make sure.

 

Speaker 3 16:46

deal. Now at this point what’s she gonna give up as part of the deal? What happens is they each throw each other under the bus. The drunk bus. The drunk bus. At this point it really is every man for themselves, every woman for themselves.

 

Speaker 3 17:01

I mean she’s trying to distance herself. Now he doesn’t talk, he doesn’t offer up any information, so a lot of what we hear is coming from her.

 

Speaker 1 17:11

But this is coming from an interview with the police like they have them now in the police station is that

 

Speaker 2 17:16

the idea i don’t i don’t know where this interview happened but

 

Speaker 3 17:20

There was a lot of different interviews and initially it was thought that they were kidnapped and being held right so the question is like

 

Speaker 1 17:27

are they? Right. But where are they? Right.

 

Speaker 2 17:29

Where are these missing people? We now know you have some connection to them. Sure.

 

Speaker 3 17:33

Because there was this sort of, people are in imminent danger, they were able to access their condominium, the rainbow condominium, which literally just had like scrapbooks of her. She had taken tons of pictures of them.

 

Speaker 3 17:51

So there’s pictures of Josh and Jeannie. And in fact, that picture was part of the scrapbook, the one that you just saw. So, now there’s a lot of pictures of Josh and Jeannie. So, now there’s a lot of pictures.

 

Speaker 1 18:01

They know. The police know that Josh and Jeannie were at the rainbow condominium with BJ and Erica. And that they were together. OK. They search the condo. Is it a crime scene? Or… Well, they consider it…

 

Speaker 1 18:15

I’m sorry, but do they find anything? Any evidence? Fingerprint? Or, you know, I mean, I guess they… They do.

 

Speaker 3 18:20

Okay, what do they find? They find in the bathroom blood evidence. Okay.

 

Speaker 2 18:25

They’d done a good job of cleaning up, but they found it in the grout. You can’t really get out. And they also found part of a, a bloody handprint on a window sill.

 

Speaker 3 18:35

There was a palm print.

 

Speaker 1 18:36

You know, you got to do windows. You got to do windows if you’re going to kill someone. So there’s blood. They test the blood and it’s it comes back.

 

Speaker 3 18:44

as Josh and Jeannie. Again it becomes complicated because she’s talking but you can’t really trust what she’s saying. He’s not saying anything. Is he locked up at this point? Yeah I mean they’re both in jail.

 

Speaker 2 19:02

Just going on and on because he’s not saying anything and there’s no other witnesses, right? They don’t know what to trust

 

Speaker 3 19:07

It’s her word against whatever uh -huh and she’s crazy and

 

Speaker 1 19:11

And she’s crazy.

 

Speaker 2 19:19

And the key to Jeannie and Josh’s hotel room was inside VJ and Erika’s condo. They also found human hair and human tissue in one of the drains. They also found a bullet hole. They searched the bathroom, they found a bullet hole.

 

Speaker 4 19:37

The Hargan women seem to have it all.

 

Speaker 5 19:40

From the outside looking in, we were blessed. My mom was amazing.

 

Speaker 4 19:44

But as detectives would soon learn, there was a lot going on inside the Hargan household.

 

Speaker 6 19:49

Ashley and I have been calling my mom and the house and Helen, no one’s answering.

 

Speaker 4 19:55

63 -year -old Pamela Hargan gunned down in her own home. Her youngest daughter Helen lay dead upstairs.

 

Speaker 5 20:02

Patrol, when they arrived, assumed or thought that there might have been a murder suicide.

 

Speaker 4 20:07

but for the detectives on the scene. There were things about the scene itself that were concerning to us on day one. Who would want to kill their mother and their little sister? There is no boogeyman here.

 

Speaker 4 20:19

It is exactly who we think it is. I’m Peter Van Sant from 48 Hours. This is Blood is Thicker, the Hargen Family Killings. Listen to Blood is Thicker, the Hargen Family Killings, wherever you get your podcasts.

 

Speaker 7 20:38

Hi, I’m Matt Harris. Seton Tucker and I host the podcast Impact of Influence, which for two years covered in depth, Alec Murdoch, who was eventually convicted in 2023 of murdering his wife Maggie and son Paul.

 

Speaker 7 20:51

That story continues to evolve and we will cover that. Plus, we will tell you stories of other true crime events that have happened in the South. Please join us on Impact of Influence and give us a follow on the Impact of Influence Facebook page.

 

Speaker 1 21:06

All right, so it’s like a shootout slaughter happens in that road.

 

Speaker 2 21:10

Yeah, but it’s unclear, right? Because there’s a little bit of blood, there’s a bullet hole, but she’s not copped to anything at this point. So the cops are like, okay, something happened here. We don’t have bodies.

 

Speaker 2 21:23

There’s no bodies. There’s evidence that there was some sort of violence. We don’t know if people are dead or not. We’re assuming the worst. We have clear evidence linking our missing couple to this couple.

 

Speaker 2 21:35

And that’s kind of all we have.

 

Speaker 1 21:36

Josh and Jeannie family involved at all or?

 

Speaker 3 21:39

Their involvement only in so far as their loved one is missing. Okay.

 

Speaker 2 21:44

This is particularly difficult for Josh’s brother, Mark. Not long before, right? Like less than a year earlier, his daughter had gotten out of rehab and was doing OK and was going for a job interview and went missing and was discovered beheaded.

 

Speaker 2 22:03

Yeah, so her heart carved out and her heart cut out. And this isn’t yeah, this isn’t another part of the country. This is not related to these people. Oh, sure. So Josh’s brother is still just reeling from this.

 

Speaker 2 22:15

The whole family is just, of course, just absolutely horrible. So now he has to deal with the fact that his brother’s missing and then Josh’s son, Zachary, is dealing with the fact that his father is missing.

 

Speaker 2 22:30

Jeannie’s family and her stepdaughter, you know, so everybody’s just like, where are they?

 

Speaker 1 22:35

Is it out in the papers and stuff that this couple is involved so not yet? Okay

 

Speaker 3 22:40

No. Yeah, not quite yet. But what is out is- The missingness is a big deal. This is- The flyers. But only the cops don’t- But only the cops don’t-

 

Speaker 1 22:48

that this couple now, they’ve got these two suspects.

 

Speaker 2 22:51

This does not happen in Ocean City, Maryland. It shouldn’t happen anywhere. Right. It’s just like, but like, it is a big deal. It is news, right? It’s, it’s becoming pretty major national news. And then once they release the information right about the couple that got arrested, it becomes a huge story.

 

Speaker 1 23:09

happen timeline wise this all happened in May are we like in the summer now or we think we’re in June well

 

Speaker 3 23:15

Yeah. So Erika Sifrit, born Erika Grace. She comes from a relatively wealthy family. She’s the only child to Mitch and Cookie Grace. They immediately hire her a lawyer.

 

Speaker 1 23:33

Too bad he didn’t get there before he could tell her to shut the fuck up.

 

Speaker 3 23:35

Yeah, pretty much. Okay. That’s about right. Right. Unfortunately, she keeps talking. Okay. And her lawyer, it seems, is constantly blindsided by stuff that she’s said or even copped to. You said, unfortunately.

 

Speaker 2 23:49

I would say fortunately. Fortunately, yeah. For her. It’s like being a staffer in the Trump White House, basically.

 

Speaker 1 23:54

Okay, so now what has she said?

 

Speaker 3 23:57

The deal is her lawyer brokers a deal for her where essentially the death penalty is taken off the table.

 

Speaker 2 24:05

Maryland had the death penalty. Okay, they don’t as of 2013 but in 2002 you could get executed in Maryland

 

Speaker 1 24:12

So then they told her that she had to give back all the Hooters stuff and then she said, you know what fuck it Give me the death Well, give me death

 

Speaker 3 24:25

Oh my God. So what ended up happening was they took the death penalty off the table, but she was then supposed to help. Implicate BJ. Right. And of course, what does she do? She does the, I’m an abused wife.

 

Speaker 3 24:41

I’m afraid of him. What he did to that couple, he can do to me and my family. So I’m afraid. And that was sort of her defense was going. It was, I’m afraid.

 

Speaker 1 24:54

because it’s like my abuser gave me a 357 magnum does it really compute right feels like you don’t give your you know you think but go ahead okay so she’s playing that card she’s

 

Speaker 3 25:11

Definitely playing that card. Oh boy. And it also helps too that her parents. They’re not a fan of hiss Right. So that’s an easy pill for them to swallow. It’s easy for them to sort of accept that My poor baby is in this mess because of this horrible man

 

Speaker 2 25:31

Just to sidebar on that for a second. So when BJ met Erica, he was actively in the Navy, Navy SEAL. He tried very hard, apparently, according to friends and family, he tried to convince her to not be into him.

 

Speaker 2 25:44

Like basically he was like, I’m away all the time, I’m in training, I’m on missions. Who wasn’t interested? Like, do not get into me, not into it. Like, you’re gonna be disappointed, I’m not gonna be around.

 

Speaker 2 25:56

She persisted. They ended up eloping and getting married in Vegas, I think, very quickly.

 

Speaker 3 26:03

Bells Chapel or something. I mean, when they first met, she was actually a student at University of Mary Washington and she was on a partial basketball scholarship. She was a good student.

 

Speaker 2 26:16

She was good student. She was good athlete. She persisted with him and something about these two brought out the worst in each other He ended up torpedoing his his military career. Yeah, I mean he was actually

 

Speaker 3 26:28

Actually, really, he was the best, the top of his class at the Navy SEALs.

 

Speaker 2 26:34

Yeah, he was really on top of his game.

 

Speaker 3 26:36

He was known as what they call an honor man.

 

Speaker 2 26:40

as soon as she persisted, she got him to sort of get into a relationship. I mean, he chose, okay, he chose to be in a relationship with her. But she was all over him. All over. And as soon as I got into a relationship, she started calling him all the time saying, I’m freaked out, you’re away.

 

Speaker 2 26:55

He’s like, I told you I was going to be away. She’s like, but I’m having a panic attack. I’m losing my mind. I’m anxious. He kept creeping up to the point where like he was jeopardizing his military career by engaging too much with this.

 

Speaker 3 27:08

with her crazy.

 

Speaker 2 27:09

And she, against rules, she flew to Alaska to visit him during training and he snuck her in. This is absolute no -no, right? He snuck her in so she could see him, got caught, they both got sent home at the end of the career.

 

Speaker 2 27:24

Interesting. At that point, that’s when things apparently started to get really, really weird with the two of them. Because

 

Speaker 1 27:32

What did they do for a living? I mean, they were on vacation. What were they on vacation from?

 

Speaker 3 27:38

Well, here’s the thing, he now wasn’t active military. She had finished school. Her dad bought her a book scrapping store. So the idea was that they would run that store together. Gotcha. And it was called Memory Lane, a take on her middle name, which is Elaine.

 

Speaker 3 27:59

Okay. So it was Memory Lane and they would work the store together and steal Ed Hooters from their downtown.

 

Speaker 1 28:10

Trying to make a Hooters connection to this scrapbooking. They’re just a scrappy young couple trying to.

 

Speaker 2 28:17

memories.

 

Speaker 1 28:21

there you go. memory lane. memory lane. memory lane. there is yours. yes.

 

Speaker 2 28:29

Like I’m not saying a word

 

Speaker 3 28:33

You’re just gross. You’re a joke. You’re gross.

 

Speaker 2 28:37

Josh is losing shit

 

Speaker 1 28:39

Here’s the crazy part. The crazy part is, please, I encourage you to look this couple up. They do not look like the freaks that you’d think they should look like.

 

Speaker 3 28:52

I kind of think they do, but I mean.

 

Speaker 1 28:54

Well, first of all, who named the snakes?

 

Speaker 2 28:57

I’m assuming they each got to name two.

 

Speaker 1 29:01

Like, they named their snakes Hitler and HIV. Well, maybe she named one Bonnie and a Hitler, and then she named it Clyde. And Bonnie and Clyde is cute. Like, that’s a fun thing. Eh, we like Bonnie and Clyde.

 

Speaker 1 29:09

Like, Hitler and HIV is a next -level insanity. Oh, it’s so good.

 

Speaker 3 29:14

He was also a vial racist. He was a vial racist? Yes, and he had a swastika tattoo.

 

Speaker 2 29:21

And and she when they got together she got the the little cross like the natural -born killers thing on her hip like the iron cross thing Yeah, I don’t know what it’s some kind of thing from natural -born killers.

 

Speaker 2 29:30

Oh, okay, right? So together they were starting to see themselves especially once you got out of the military They were starting to fashion themselves as this like very off -the -edge crazy Gun -toted couple so right now

 

Speaker 1 29:47

I wonder if that was an influence that came out in 94 now, so I don’t know maybe that’s too soon. But like, you know, they could have fastened themselves after was it Mick and Mallory? Yeah, I don’t know.

 

Speaker 2 29:59

I mean if it was that who know like it could be anything. Okay. Well, like you got it. You got it

 

Speaker 1 30:04

First time they’ve…

 

Speaker 3 30:05

Well, this is the interesting thing. Neither one of them has a police record up until this point. Of any kind.

 

Speaker 1 30:11

Yeah, but what I was gonna say is yeah, look at the picture of them They do not look like the freaks that you would expect you think of white supremacist and crazy hooter robbing Xanax snorting and guns and swastika Tattoo, yeah, even like when you watch natural born killers what they become They kind of look like this embodiment of evil.

 

Speaker 1 30:29

These two do not look like that. I don’t think I think they look shockingly normal

 

Speaker 2 30:34

I think they look a little strung out, honestly, to me. I mean, they don’t look like stereotypical.

 

Speaker 3 30:42

I guess that’s the thing they don’t look like a dangerous couple right no they look they look approachable right which is

 

Speaker 1 30:48

why you would go along with them even in the face of stuff. Okay, so where are we now? So we’re

 

Speaker 2 30:53

So we’re just saying this the sidebar was you know, they both kind of torpedoed like she’s not talking to her family as much He’s not talking to his family as much. He’s left his military career They’re now in the zone of bad, right?

 

Speaker 2 31:06

Right. They’re going deeper into just bad shit. Okay, so they’re bringing out It’s one of these couples. It’s just bringing out the worst in each other, right? Right, which usually ends badly but doesn’t usually end in murder, right?

 

Speaker 3 31:18

I mean, Erika Sifrit actually said about her parents that they had a very close relationship and she felt… With her parents? No, her parents had a very close relationship with each other and she felt left out.

 

Speaker 3 31:31

That’s not to say that theirs was not a toxic relationship. That’s not to say that… I mean, he had done some very gross and disgusting things to her. You know, he had cheated on her. He came to her one day and said, let’s start a family.

 

Speaker 3 31:49

And then she did, she got pregnant. And then four months in, he’s like, essentially said to her, get rid of it or I’ll take it out and had her terminate the pregnancy.

 

Speaker 1 32:02

It might have been for the best.

 

Speaker 3 32:03

Well, it might have been, yeah.

 

Speaker 1 32:05

You know, like a downward spiral. These two have been absolutely. Yeah.

 

Speaker 3 32:09

So now she is making this deal and part of the deal too was that she would have to take a lie detector. She would need to do a polygraph. They needed that.

 

Speaker 1 32:21

to see how much of what she’s saying is actually true.

 

Speaker 3 32:23

Right, also because it’s only her word. BJ is not talking.

 

Speaker 2 32:29

have no witnesses and the only other person who’s the conspirator in the crime is absolutely clammed up.

 

Speaker 3 32:36

So he’s doing the right thing by the way. No, he is doing the right thing and well It’s doing the right thing for him right and it will work given the fact that she is a liar Well, what did she lie about that?

 

Speaker 3 32:48

He’s abusive She lied about the fact that he killed Josh and genie. So she said that

 

Speaker 1 32:54

Yes, she said basically he did it. Yes, exactly. Right. Exactly

 

Speaker 3 33:00

I robbed Hooters, he kills people. And, right, and basically he turned it around and said that she killed Josh. I thought he wasn’t saying anything.

 

Speaker 2 33:08

Well, once the lawyer got involved, I got you.

 

Speaker 3 33:10

Right, he lawyered up, he took the stand in his own defense, so he was able to have a very

 

Speaker 1 33:17

And are they saying how it happened?

 

Speaker 3 33:20

We know that Josh and Jeannie went back to the rainbow condominiums with Erica and BJ, and something happened.

 

Speaker 1 33:33

You can’t say, well, you know what happened, something like that.

 

Speaker 3 33:36

something bad something really bad and the blood that was found was pretty indicative of something really really bad happening right turns out Erica had admitted that Josh and Jeannie had been dismembered

 

Speaker 1 33:53

Let’s go back for a second. Erica was about to take a lie detector test. Yes.

 

Speaker 3 33:57

Well that was part of the deal, the deal was that she needed to do a polygraph. She ended up not doing the polygraph because when they were having the pre -interview she incriminated herself and then the examiner was like we can’t move forward with this.

 

Speaker 1 34:13

So it’s like what’s your name? I stabbed her right? That’s about right. I mean Erica Right so what?

 

Speaker 3 34:25

What does she admit to? Well, she admitted that she had a larger role in it. She didn’t say I killed them, but it was, well, yes, B .J. told me to stab her, so I stabbed her in saying more than she should have.

 

Speaker 3 34:40

Whereas before, it wasn’t any of that, it was. He did it, he did it all.

 

Speaker 1 34:45

right so okay so she not only said that he did stuff but that she did stuff too and then they’re like all right you know what maybe we don’t need the polygraph I guess we’ll believe this and she

 

Speaker 2 34:54

You know she basically had said that he shot them and killed them. Okay prior to this lie detector So she had no part in it. She was just there. Okay, she admits that she stabbed genie right before the lie detector test So now at this point she’s incriminated, right?

 

Speaker 2 35:09

So she’s been lying lying lying So they now they know she’s been like it’s like why are you even doing a lie detector, right? She’s basically pre pre -test admitted right like cuz now she’s admitting to something she never did before Now you’ve got to figure out.

 

Speaker 2 35:23

What did he actually do right because he hasn’t copped to anything, right? All he said through his lawyer at this point is I don’t know what the hell happened, right? My wife Killed these people. I was asleep.

 

Speaker 2 35:36

I think he said he was asleep in the van in Right in their Jeep in the Jeep, right? He’s like I was asleep in the Jeep. She came down was like babe. I Killed these people right? Can you help me and he was like, okay.

 

Speaker 2 35:50

I’ll dismember them Right. So this is the story he’s telling right her story is he killed him. Well, okay. I also stabbed her

 

Speaker 3 36:00

Right. The other thing, too, that had come up was she had said that he had said so I should just kill them and she said, yes, you want to. So just do it. Just do it. So because at this point, Jeannie was screaming and she’s like, oh, just to make her stop screaming, I just said, you know, that you’re screaming because she got stabbed or well, she’s screaming because she’s afraid.

 

Speaker 3 36:22

And at this point, Josh was shot and killed right in front of her. Oh, God. OK. All right.

 

Speaker 1 36:27

day.

 

Speaker 2 36:27

I just want to stop here for a second because we’re getting into the details and it’s a very dark weird crazy story I want to just lay out her version of the story because there’s some interesting wrinkles to it that explain Well explain nothing actually, but I’ll I’ll lay it out So so her version is they get back to their condo BJ and Erica take genie and Josh back to the condo They’re partying.

 

Speaker 2 36:51

They’re having fun genie and Erica I think go in the hot tub your Erica tries to get her in the hot tub I don’t know. There’s some like hot tub thing happening. She’s

 

Speaker 3 37:00

Right, because I know she’s off changing into her bathing suit.

 

Speaker 2 37:03

Yeah, she’s trying to like get them in the hot tub like to go right and so at some point erica says where’s my purse? She starts freaking freaking out. She can’t find her purse. Okay freaking out She’s like she’s like one of these motherfuckers stole my purse, right?

 

Speaker 2 37:15

Her version is that either josh or genie have stolen her purse. Okay And she says to bj one of them stole my purse She calls 911 to report That her purse has been stolen or that there were people there She doesn’t know them.

 

Speaker 2 37:35

They may have stolen her purse and she hangs up She actually this call actually happened. They go back and they find it. She hangs up when they go. What’s your address? She hangs up. Okay. Okay, so she’s toying with them, right?

 

Speaker 2 37:46

Basically and then bj comes with his gun and is like where’s her purse? And at this point genie and josh are like holy fucking shit Like now the gun is pointed at us. These people are out of their goddamn minds And they freak out Flea to the bathroom lock the door So they’re hiding in the bathroom erica somehow there’s like a window to the bathroom So she like leans out or there’s I don’t know if there’s a balcony But she somehow looks she sees where they are in the bathroom and tells bj So he starts shooting through the bathroom door and shoots josh twice through the door And just blood everywhere.

 

Speaker 2 38:23

That is how he dies So now genie doesn’t know what to do right she’s she’s now

 

Speaker 3 38:30

in the fetal position under the vanity.

 

Speaker 2 38:33

And Erika comes in, and this is where Erika’s-

 

Speaker 3 38:36

shoots the door open and kicks it open.

 

Speaker 2 38:39

And this is where she gets stabbed. We don’t know whether she was also shot or not, but she dies in the bathroom also.

 

Speaker 3 38:48

Because at some point, the bodies were dismembered, bad, and dropped off at various dumpsters in Delaware. And then at some point, they were found in the landfill. The cops had done a search, found them in the landfill.

 

Speaker 3 39:05

Apparently, Delaware has a very specifically graded, they pretty much was able to lead them to the grid where that particular dumpster, and they found Jeannie’s leg. Yeah.

 

Speaker 2 39:18

And the reason they were dismembered is this is how insane these people are. They’re on the 20th floor penthouse of a condo in a seaside resort filled with tourists. You can’t get a body out of there, right?

 

Speaker 2 39:32

So because of his Navy SEAL training, BJ knows how to dismember a human body. So he… I know the story. Like you’re looking at me like, why are we doing this cake?

 

Speaker 1 39:46

No! I’m sorry, I wasn’t paying attention. Could you stop from the beginning?

 

Speaker 2 39:51

So they put them body parts into smaller bags and just start taking them down, like suitcases and duffel bags and stuff. They go to Delaware to try and get a little bit of distance between the crime scene.

 

Speaker 2 40:04

I think it was Erica who admitted this to the cops that she says this is what BJ did. And BJ says all I did was, as if this was an okay thing, dismember, right, all I did was the dismembering. I didn’t do the killing.

 

Speaker 2 40:18

I was asleep. I was asleep, but I was just helping my wife, I think he says. They put the body parts in these dumpsters.

 

Speaker 1 40:25

I’m surprised she let them go and not try to put them in the scrapbook.

 

Speaker 2 40:29

Well, she took a lot of pictures.

 

Speaker 1 40:33

Oh my god. Yeah. Oh my god.

 

Speaker 2 40:36

only picture she wouldn’t take. Okay, I can’t believe we have to say this out loud. The only photo she’s like, I’m not doing that is a photo of BJ holding the severed heads. Right. She’s like, I’m not taking that photo.

 

Speaker 2 40:50

Like that’s where she’s posing. Yeah, he did pose.

 

Speaker 3 40:53

the picture that but she wasn’t gonna put that in the scrapbook

 

Speaker 2 40:56

Did she actually take it? I thought she refused to take it.

 

Speaker 3 40:59

He had asked her to take it because he wanted to send it to his SEAL buddies.

 

Speaker 2 41:02

Oh, right.

 

Speaker 6 41:03

Hello, this is Dr. Grande, the host of True Crime Psychology and Personality. On my podcast, I explore and explain the pathology behind some of the most horrendous crimes and those who commit them. We discuss topics like narcissism, psychopathy, sociopathy, and antisocial personality disorder from a scientifically informed perspective.

 

Speaker 6 41:25

What is a narcissist? How do you spot a sociopath? What science can you look for to protect yourself from these dangerous personalities? It’s not just about the stories, but also the science and psychology behind them.

 

Speaker 6 41:39

So if you’re interested in true crime or mental health, I’d encourage you to give my show a listen wherever you get podcasts.

 

Speaker 2 41:46

So they dump the body parts of these two people. They explain where they, eventually they tell the cops where the dumpsters were. And as Kim said, Delaware is able to very clearly trace.

 

Speaker 1 41:59

right cell phone data or something maybe no it’s like they know they know where the trucks go it’s like making it so that you know that they went to that dumpster yeah they well she

 

Speaker 3 42:08

The thing about her was that she was not trustworthy, but she would give just enough information. Because at the end of the day, she was trying to protect herself. And so she would lead them to, oh, yeah, we went to this dumpster.

 

Speaker 2 42:24

So then they could go to the landfill because in Delaware Delaware is very flat And the landfill is like a weird thing because it’s like the only tall thing in Delaware, right? It’s giant so they know exactly where those trucks at that time would have done So they got a ton of cops out there who are digging and digging and they pretty quickly find Parts, you know, they don’t find all of their body parts ever, but they do find they don’t find their heads They’re a friend the heads, but they find her leg.

 

Speaker 2 42:50

They found his torso and So

 

Speaker 1 42:55

Did she find her purse? Oh, it was right here the whole time behind the couch. I guess they didn’t try to steal it

 

Speaker 2 43:02

Well, so interesting point about that, one of the key witnesses at their trial is a woman named Melissa Sealing, who later that same week was approached by Erika and BJ to party on the strip.

 

Speaker 3 43:19

It so happened that B .J. and Erica were partying with a friend of hers, Justin. Justin Wright. Right. R -I -G -H -T. Yeah. Right. W -R -I -G -H -T.

 

Speaker 2 43:29

called her, Justin called his friend Melissa and said, hey, I’m partnering with this couple, you wanna come hang out? She comes and meets them. Oh, and also they had like a flat tire that needed changing.

 

Speaker 2 43:36

That’s right.

 

Speaker 3 43:37

And she had gone help them with the flat tire and then it was like, oh, let’s buy you a drink. Come let’s buy you a drink.

 

Speaker 2 43:44

flat tire BJ and Erica had a quote unquote tire and so this woman Melissa was like to her friend Justin I don’t like their vibe like let’s get the fuck out of here he’s like no let’s hang on let’s hang out so they went all the way down all the steps the drinks they went to their condo Erica is like where’s my purse one of these motherfuckers stole my purse BJ pulls his gun on Justin and Melissa

 

Speaker 3 44:11

And in fact at one point he grabs Melissa’s face and says it’s really important that we find this purse

 

Speaker 2 44:19

So, this couple is able to leave because B .J. makes the decision at that exact moment spontaneously that it would be too difficult to dispose of another set of bodies.

 

Speaker 1 44:33

I broke the saw on the last one. Yeah, so this couple

 

Speaker 2 44:39

And these people become witnesses who corroborate almost every aspect of what happens to…

 

Speaker 1 44:45

The other couple. Oh my God. Here’s a question. Is this… was Josh and…

 

Speaker 2 44:51

First one. Here’s the thing. We don’t know, because slaycations, you find a random couple in a resort town. You make sure there’s not a lot of tracing of where they are and who they’re with. No one really knows where you are.

 

Speaker 2 45:04

And if you look at it, if you take out this Hooters burglary where she invited the cops to find the IDs, if that hadn’t happened, all you have is missing persons, no connection to this couple. And if you actually looked at the condo, the cops said unless you were really looking, you would not have found the evidence.

 

Speaker 2 45:22

They did a pretty good job of cleaning up. They replaced the door with the bullet holes.

 

Speaker 3 45:27

would say that he almost felt like a higher power was assisting in the investigation.

 

Speaker 2 45:34

Yeah. There was so many lucky breaks because if this couple had just checked out of this condo, they’d replaced the door. They removed all the stuff. They’d done a pretty good job of cleaning up the blood.

 

Speaker 2 45:44

Right. There’s no way this is the first time. It doesn’t feel like it, right?

 

Speaker 1 45:47

I mean, they’re too good at it. Yeah. Well, it does make you wonder. But also like this whole charade of the purse thing to be, we’re going to set it up so that we can murder them. And then why?

 

Speaker 3 45:59

Well, it’s like a game they play. It’s a game. I mean, look, they’re obviously toxic individuals. Of course, now what happens, it’s every man, woman for themselves. She’s trying to save her skin. He’s not speaking.

 

Speaker 3 46:14

He gets on the stand, throws her under the bus. And as it turns out, BJ’s case comes first and he is not charged with Joshua’s murder.

 

Speaker 7 46:28

Oh.

 

Speaker 3 46:29

Mm -hmm because it was her gun right right and the gun was found in Her purse and the sponge and exactly

 

Speaker 2 46:40

So they decide it was her, right? And what happens?

 

Speaker 3 46:43

charged with Jeannie’s murder. Oh. So he’s he’s in jail. He was actually recently up for parole. First parole hearing. I think it was April of 2022, right?

 

Speaker 1 46:55

And they got like first degree, right? I mean, this is premeditated.

 

Speaker 3 46:58

She got a harsher sentence than him. She’ll be up for parole in 2024.

 

Speaker 2 47:04

And he actually gets out of jail in 2030. So here, just think about this for a second. You premeditate a plan to trap people, murder them, dismember them, and then plan to do it again. We know you plan to do it again because the witnesses at the trial are the one you plan to do it again to.

 

Speaker 2 47:21

And you go to jail for 28 years. There were people in New York State who were in jail for longer than that, for having two ounces of marijuana. I was gonna say, yeah. With no possibility of parole. Right.

 

Speaker 2 47:35

So this is where you start to understand how people can look at our justice system and ask, is it fair? Like, you get a high -powered attorney who makes a deal. You can literally murder people, chop them up, and plan to do it again and go to jail for 28 years.

 

Speaker 2 47:52

That just seems insane. Like, why are these people getting out of jail?

 

Speaker 3 47:57

DJ will be able to walk out the door in 2030. He’ll be relatively young. He’ll be able to continue living his life.

 

Speaker 2 48:09

I don’t know, but I’m guessing he didn’t become necessarily a better person in jail, but no, but he is a mom

 

Speaker 1 48:16

prisoner mm -hmm maybe they can send him off to another country to be part of the seals again and he could use his valor man this is crazy yeah crazy I mean it’s a real -life natural -born killers like there’s no motive they didn’t like rob them

 

Speaker 3 48:36

There was no motive.

 

Speaker 1 48:37

You know, it’s literally two lunatics killing for kicks, right?

 

Speaker 3 48:44

That’s exactly what it is

 

Speaker 1 48:47

Before Instagram

 

Speaker 2 48:49

Right right so much information about this case, but there’s you can read about it for days You can watch the movies everything wait. There was a movie made

 

Speaker 1 48:57

No. TV stuff. TV… Like Discovery ID type. Yeah. Forensic files. And you said there was a book? Mm -hmm. Book. What was the book called?

 

Speaker 3 49:06

cruel death.

 

Speaker 1 49:08

Gotcha.

 

Speaker 3 49:09

accrual by William

 

Speaker 1 49:10

Not the Hooters Shooters? Oof. What?

 

Speaker 2 49:14

That would be there it is always like that late in the episode

 

Speaker 3 49:17

soon. I know. We’re just weary from the content. My job’s just begun.

 

Speaker 2 49:25

Here we go, so it’s interesting because as humans you want there to be a motive You’re like just just tell me what the motive is so I can understand because you don’t you don’t like the idea that You could just be on vacation with your boyfriend or girlfriend or wife or whatever and just random fucking shit happens And you end up murdered and dismembered random as fuck like super random So some crazy motherfuckers got together and brought out the worst in each other like the worst some like these people if they hadn’t met None of this probably would have happened right and So we look for motives because it makes it makes sense right even if it was just like they were robbing them You’re like, okay.

 

Speaker 2 50:02

I kind of understand that this just has not there’s nothing right and so people have looked at her and Said well what you know what the hell was wrong with her like why was this girl who was raised in this this?

 

Speaker 2 50:13

You know well to do family by parents

 

Speaker 3 50:17

Dotting parents how old was she when this was 24 24, okay?

 

Speaker 2 50:22

And so… I mean, B .J., too. Yeah, 24. Oh, the two of them. You know, the military on the last…

 

Speaker 3 50:28

You know loved him. He worked hard. He was a lifeguard in high school. He it’s

 

Speaker 2 50:35

What were you gonna say about her? If you look at all the information around this case when people talk about what happened to her, why would she do this, the overwhelming majority of people point to this idea that her parents, her dad in particular, Mitch, was very aggressively, proactively about her being the best she could be, right?

 

Speaker 2 50:55

So when she got into basketball and was good at it, he’s like, oh, we’re gonna make you great at it, and hired coaches and got her on these teams and just relentlessly, you know. What a bastard. Right.

 

Speaker 2 51:08

Well, I mean, I’ve kinda. No, but it’s a crazy thing to say, like this idea, like, every kid whose parents are, you know, aggressively helping them pursue excellence is creating a murder, like it doesn’t make.

 

Speaker 2 51:21

Like I always say, like, you have to say it in reverse. So if she hadn’t have had a dad who got her a basketball coach, she wouldn’t be a murderer, like, it just sounds so dumb. That’s what people like to point to, you know, and sort of a crazy thing to say when you think about how many people have grown up in truly abusive or homes of poverty or like really challenging situations and turn out great.

 

Speaker 1 51:45

right? It turned out to be Venus and Serena Williams. Sure. Or whoever.

 

Speaker 2 51:49

right? It’s not a… I don’t know. What do you mean it’s in Serena Williams? I don’t know how they grew up.

 

Speaker 1 51:55

their father was like a tyrant who made them the best and like they became tennis champions.

 

Speaker 2 51:59

And some people’s parents are tyrants and they don’t turn out to be the best, but they also don’t turn out to be serial killers, they like, you go to therapy and you work out the issues, but like, or Hooters Robbers.

 

Speaker 2 52:09

To me, it’s like, it’s a really shitty thing to say that that’s…

 

Speaker 3 52:14

that need to find a reason you know even in the book it was kind of this search and it was kind of oh Erica had a lot of pressure she had a lot of pressure and one of the things that she would even say is her parents were so close and you know that she felt like the third wheel

 

Speaker 1 52:34

So they want to make her be sort of the victim to him.

 

Speaker 3 52:38

I don’t know if it’s that as much as wanting to sort of make it make sense.

 

Speaker 1 52:44

right but they’re not trying to make it make sense for him are they who he’s just like a bad dude who names as well snake Hitler and

 

Speaker 3 52:51

No, I think because BJ really didn’t talk, there’s really no information, there’s really nothing to say about him.

 

Speaker 2 53:03

There wasn’t anything we found prior to this that would say he was a bad dude. It seems like all the badness came out in the relationship, but we don’t know. We don’t know that for sure.

 

Speaker 1 53:14

I tell you what I mean had they checked where this couple had been prior and try to match up any missing people or whatever

 

Speaker 2 53:23

I don’t know. You know.

 

Speaker 1 53:25

I don’t know. I mean, look, what’s that detectives name, you know?

 

Speaker 3 53:28

Yeah, I’m gonna give him a call. This case affected him and he’s no longer her. This was the case that… It broke him. Oh, God. It was all terrible. I can see this. It was all terrible. No, all of it.

 

Speaker 3 53:40

All of it. All of it was awful. And just the pictures after doing that to these people, and that was another thing. The whole defense was, I was abused in it, but yet there’s pictures of her smiling, happy, scrapbooking.

 

Speaker 3 53:56

Yeah, you gotta remember like, yeah.

 

Speaker 2 53:58

They she cooked her own evidence right so like she had a whole camera after camera roll filled with pictures Not just of the couple but of them partying of them doing the crime

 

Speaker 1 54:08

This is before cell phones, like with cameras, right? Yeah. I mean, 2002. So you’re not really taking camera phones, you’re using, like, little cameras. No, yes. They had, right. And she went and got this developed?

 

Speaker 2 54:21

Mm -hmm. Yeah, they had stacks of photos she was constantly developing photos. What was that for?

 

Speaker 1 54:25

Photo met here you go Blood looks really realistic. You know what fucked the killers for a second Like let’s talk about the poor people because I you showed me a picture of Jeannie and Josh And I gotta say like you’re talking about this older woman and a younger guy And I thought the case was gonna be younger guy kills older woman for her money

 

Speaker 2 54:45

You did say early on in part one, you were like, oh, I see where this is probably going.

 

Speaker 1 54:50

And that’s what I thought was gonna happen. And instead, you get this couple that’s, they look super sweet, they look super happy together, and tragic trusting of people on vacation. Just trying to have a good time.

 

Speaker 1 55:04

Yeah, having a good time probably, I mean, I don’t know, based on what you’re saying, she was probably outside of her normal comfort zone, but had that fuck it, I’m on vacation attitude.

 

Speaker 2 55:14

Well, I thought it was a comfort zone, but in Ocean City, Maryland, where, you know, it’s like, it’s not like you’re in…

 

Speaker 1 55:19

You’re getting drunk, you’re on a drunk bus, why is a 50 -something year old woman on the drunk bus? Kim, I couldn’t get you on a drunk bus, if you got hit by the drunk bus and I had to use the drunk bus to get you to the hospital, Jerry would be driving the drunk bus.

 

Speaker 2 55:34

I would not be driving breakfast. I do not try, I don’t want to drive after drinking, but I would be out of the traffic.

 

Speaker 3 55:39

And I think too, it’s like, you know, you’re on for this weekend getaway and you’re just like… But you’re not doing that on vacation to me. No, no, but I’m… You’re not doing that. I’m different. You can all agree that I’m different.

 

Speaker 3 55:50

I mean, you did say I was the killer of fun. You have said that about me.

 

Speaker 1 55:55

Right I think she is a serial killer of fun for sure

 

Speaker 3 56:01

You said that about your wife? Oh my god. About Kim? Several occasions.

 

Speaker 2 56:06

I don’t, I don’t see it.

 

Speaker 3 56:08

It doesn’t mean he doesn’t love me, but he has said that. But, you know. I’ll take a polygraph, it won’t come up long.

 

Speaker 1 56:17

I’m sorry. I’ll take that.

 

Speaker 3 56:20

God damn polygraph for that you got the sense that they really Cared and loved each other even his son who’s an adult now Zachary

 

Speaker 2 56:31

I’m a precious kid, yeah.

 

Speaker 3 56:32

was inspired by the attorney, the prosecutor. He became a lawyer and he actually spoke at the parole hearing. And to think that this little boy grew up without his dad for no good goddamn reason, for no reason.

 

Speaker 3 56:52

So the idea that this guy and this woman, I mean, you know, you could throw the blame around. It really doesn’t matter because what matters is that Jeannie and Josh are not here. Right. That’s what matters.

 

Speaker 3 57:07

For no reason. For no reason.

 

Speaker 1 57:09

It’s yeah, it’s pretty senseless. So with that in mind, what’s the takeaway? Yeah, what is the takeaway?

 

Speaker 3 57:16

the takeaway, guys. Jerry? Adam?

 

Speaker 2 57:21

Gosh, I don’t know. You know, I mean, normally there’s some pretty clear takeaway. I got I got to say the takeaway on this one is just live every day like to your fullest. Because you never know. I don’t know what you’re going to be hiding in a bathroom.

 

Speaker 2 57:38

I mean, I’m kind of not strong.

 

Speaker 1 57:40

I’d say, I’d say, get on.

 

Speaker 3 57:41

on that drunk bus, but just go home with your, look, here’s the thing, I think the takeaway or one takeaway should be, because I’m sensing that at some point, Jeannie had some concern about the guns.

 

Speaker 3 57:59

If there’s a little voice saying, it’s fun, but let’s not go back to anybody’s house. I was gonna say, stay public. Yeah, exactly. It’s like you really have to constantly be thinking, safety.

 

Speaker 1 58:14

If they met BJ alone and he was like hey come back to my place they probably say no But because it’s a couple mm -hmm it feels safe exactly

 

Speaker 2 58:24

Yeah, let’s let’s a good one listening to your little voice because she’s genie does seem like the kind of person who Would not have wanted to hang out with people with guns However, we don’t know if she had that little voice and I just want to be careful that we’re not saying I just don’t want to say Oh She if only she had listened to the to the little voice because I don’t know if she heard that I wish I could say I saw something here to say oh don’t do this or do that, right?

 

Speaker 2 58:47

I personally wouldn’t go home To a stranger’s apartment to two people who have guns. That would be just a hard no for me, but that’s me

 

Speaker 1 58:56

So though they’re gun culture people, like then maybe it’s

 

Speaker 2 58:59

I’d be fine with it. You know that for me would have been the red flag, but that’s not necessarily a red flag

 

Speaker 3 59:05

it’s not part of our culture in a sense where the thing is guns can be like such a big part of people’s culture you know I have family

 

Speaker 1 59:15

Here’s the thing. It’s not just the guns if it’s like rational people like you got you know, her snorting Adderall No, she’s snorting Xanax they’re doing shots They’re getting fucked up and then let’s go back to our place and they’re gun toting like there’s a lot of Things they’d like why what is the thrill of doing that, you know Look, even if I would be weary like hmm.

 

Speaker 1 59:51

Is this all a setup to get me? I would be like, I think we’re good Why don’t we meet tomorrow for breakfast? See where that goes? You know that kind of thing and then you know, whatever they turn out to be victims and they’re not the only victims Hitler and HIV growing up orphans the snakes Who’s caring for them?

 

Speaker 7 01:00:10

Wow, wow.

 

Speaker 1 01:00:11

Josh, you.

 

Speaker 2 01:00:12

Fatimat, damn, that’s dark.

 

Speaker 3 01:00:17

But they are, though, and they’re just innocent.

 

Speaker 2 01:00:20

Are they innocent or have they killed?

 

Speaker 1 01:00:24

Just because they have a bad name, they’re still just a snake. I mean, it is- They didn’t name themselves-

 

Speaker 2 01:00:28

It’s so dark and fucked up, but like it’s kind of like genius things to name snakes

 

Speaker 1 01:00:37

fucked up. If this was a movie, if you wrote this as a script, it’s like, yes!

 

Speaker 2 01:00:43

but Hitler and HIV right so I guess if someone told me I have snakes named Hitler and HIV that would be red a red flag you know what you get

 

Speaker 1 01:00:51

You get you get two of the three you get drugs guns like you got drugs guns and racist snake So you get two of those three?

 

Speaker 2 01:01:00

is checked. Let’s assume they didn’t tell them about the racistly named Snake. And you know… Well how do you guys know about it?

 

Speaker 1 01:01:06

Whoa. Do they have name tags? How do we find out these snakes? Do the snakes get on the stand? The guy named me Hitler. Guy’s an asshole.

 

Speaker 2 01:01:18

How do we know I think that I don’t know if there was enough red flags here just to give like a tip a take away Because because you’re the thing like she’s like i’m an anxious person. I need my zanax.

 

Speaker 2 01:01:28

It works faster if I snort it Okay. Oh you got in with guns. Oh, I used to use guns when I was in the military Okay, I understand. You’re absolutely right. There’s like red flags, but you could also see how someone wouldn’t see them as red flags

 

Speaker 3 01:01:40

Well, and it’s true. I mean, I know for me, if I’m on a drunk bus and that wouldn’t happen, but let’s say for the sake of argument, I’m a- That’s what makes one of us. Right. I know I’m not gonna be trying to hang out with the drunk couple, even though I’m on a drunk bus.

 

Speaker 1 01:01:55

Mm -hmm. By the way, any bus could easily become a drunk bus

 

Speaker 2 01:02:00

Well, here’s the other thing the hundred thousand foot view on this is we’re doing this show right? We’re doing this location Because the idea is that people think they can get away with stuff on vacations because people’s guards are down And they’re relaxed, right?

 

Speaker 2 01:02:13

And this is that. That really is that. It speaks to the whole reason we’re doing this is like These murders happen because people think they can get away with it. People’s guards are down. People are relaxed

 

Speaker 3 01:02:25

Because if they were shopping in keep food and they came in drunk and was like, oh, you know, they’re not going to say, let me get this, you know, cat food for you. All right. Let’s. We’ll see you next week.

 

Speaker 3 01:02:35

Thanks for watching. We’ll see you next week.

 

Speaker 1 01:02:36

What a very oddly specific reference. Had food. And pea food. Pea food and kefir. You know what, though? Actually, I will say we’re missing one other thing. BJ and Erica were technically on vacation, and they killed people while on vacation.

 

Speaker 1 01:02:50

So this is this rare unicorn case where the vacationers were also the murderers, because they were also on vacation. It was a… They were on a slakation. This is a full -on slakation. Well, I guess we’ll wrap this up, because there’s nowhere else to go but down and get canceled.

 

Speaker 1 01:03:09

But crazy case, and now you see why we did it in two parts to make it go down a little easier. It was a lot, yeah.

 

Speaker 3 01:03:19

Well, I don’t even know what to say. There you go. But, you know.

 

Speaker 2 01:03:24

Well said. Thanks.

 

Speaker 3 01:03:26

Hey, and if you guys have any takeaways that you’d like to share, please feel free.

 

Speaker 2 01:03:34

I really don’t. I don’t. I’m sorry.

 

Speaker 3 01:03:36

And our audience has… Oh, you’re asking the audience? It’ll take place. publication .com.

 

Speaker 1 01:03:40

We have we got to get a we should get that yeah, yeah

 

Speaker 2 01:03:44

We have, by the time you hear this, we’ll have Salication .com. Yeah. Maybe we’ll…

 

Speaker 3 01:03:48

You’ll even read your takeaway.

 

Speaker 2 01:03:50

Yeah, or leave it in the comments on Apple Podcasts, and we’ll read your takeaway on this case. Yes, or…

 

Speaker 1 01:03:56

or any of our cases.

 

Speaker 3 01:03:57

Now I just need someone to take me away. Thanks for joining us, guys. We have such an interesting time sharing our whatever that is.

 

Speaker 1 01:04:12

and scene. Alright, thanks for listening everybody. Catch you on the next one.

 

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